Censoring of portrait and nuclear power

[HAWK77]

In the World War Wednesday from 17.12.2015 at the time 22:50 - 23:40 they say that the portrait of Hitler and nuclear power are not allowed in Germany.

http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/30241329

That is not true. Only swastikas and SS symbols are not allowed.
There are a lot of games in Germany that show Hitler like Sniper Elite and even HOI3.
Why should nuclear power be also not allowed?

I know the anime picture is a placeholder but with what will it be replaced if Hitler gets removed?

HOI3 had all of this and I can buy it on the German steam store.
Please don't censor what doesn't need to be censored by law in Germany.

 

[Centerbe]

umm.....

 

[ILoveLamp]

umm.....

So I take it the devs were just trolling

 

[HAWK77]

They might be trolling but they already had the portrait in the game.

 

[Will Steel]

They have already put portraits into the game, and even showed in in DDs. And they did show nukes previously. They are just trying to troll...and failed.

That said, anime portraits would be awesome. I will be really eager to see a mod for this.

 

[HAWK77]

Glad to hear they are just trolling because some games like COD World at War got censored in a very big way (historical videos) although they only had to take the swastikas and dismemberment of body parts out of the game to be legaly sold in germany.

 

[Damiani]

I don't like anime...

Please don't kill me

 

[MonkeyFuzz]

My understanding has been that the display of National Socialism-related symbols is allowed in Germany when used in works of art. Recent legal statutes allow for video games to be included in this consideration of "art".

As for the sarcasm, it can be hard to adequately convey that into languages that aren't your native tongue

 

[Shatterfury]

My understanding has been that the display of National Socialism-related symbols is allowed in Germany when used in works of art. Recent legal statutes allow for video games to be included in this consideration of "art".

As for the sarcasm, it can be hard to adequately convey that into languages that aren't your native tongue

They should allow the symbols in games, Paradox isn`t some secret Nazi club.

I might derail the thread but if Germany really wants to lower the number of Nazis they should re embrace a big part of their history.
Prussia was also a bi confessional state and a leader in technology among others , it wasn`t just a military state.That is just garbage !

 

[henzington]

I like jokes. Jokes are funny.

 

[mdw1985]

Since i can claim to know the german law here, i can tell, that showing hitler is prohibited, paragraph 86 a I Nr.1 StGB...

Edit: To clearify it for german law noobs, showing such symbols is allowed, if it serves the defense against unconstitutional efforts, science, art, research, studies, reports concerning history or similar purposes, paragraph 86 III StGB. Computer games are not art. And computer games sich like HOI don't teach history. Computergames are released for fun purposes, which dominate towards art, science and critical reporting of history. I share this opinion of the german legislative fully in this matter!

 

[Phibs]

Since i can claim to know the german law here, i can tell, that showing hitler is prohibited, paragraph 86 a I Nr.1 StGB...

Is that why I see him on TV and magazine covers so often?

 

[mdw1985]

Is that why I see him on TV and magazine covers so often?

Hey! just edited my post above for clearification. we see hitler every day in documentaries here. But aince this is the caregory of history and teaching, it is allowed. We also have a movie "er ist wieder da", which is based on a book, where hitler awakens in todays germany. But this is allowed too, since films are art in germany. We have a very broad definition of art from the Bundesverfassungsgericht (BVerfG), but still games are not includable there...

Actually, there is nothing in german law, which is undisputed. And there are voices, to open up the laws. But jurisdiction is still very clear and strict on this matter...

Edit: For Hitlers portrait the jurisdiction can be found here

BGHSt 25, 133, 135
BGHSt 28, 394, 396

(The BGHSt means BGH Rechtsprechung in Strafsachen, The first number is the book number, the second number the first page of the verdict and the last number is, where you find it)

For another point of view on this matter, see Nomos Kommentar zum Strafrecht, paragraph 86 ziff. 11, Paeffgen (author of the paragraph)

 

[Phibs]

Computer games are not art. And computer games sich like HOI don't teach history. Computergames are released for fun purposes, which dominate towards art, science and critical reporting of history. I share this opinion of the german legislative fully in this matter!

That's your prerogative, but I think you'll find yourself in a minority there, even amongst the german forumites. I, for one, wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Hey! just edited my post above for clearification. we see hitler every day in documentaries here. But aince this is the caregory of history and teaching, it is allowed. We also have a movie "er ist wieder da", which is based on a book, where hitler awakens in todays germany. But this is allowed too, since films are art in germany. We have a very broad definition of art from the Bundesverfassungsgericht (BVerfG), but still games are not includable there...

Actually, there is nothing in german law, which is undisputed. And there are voices, to open up the laws. But jurisdiction is still very clear and strict on this matter...

Edit: For Hitlers portrait the jurisdiction can be found here

BGHSt 25, 133, 135
BGHSt 28, 394, 396

(The BGHSt means BGH Rechtsprechung in Strafsachen, The first number is the book number, the second number the first page of the verdict and the last number is, where you find it)

For another point of view on this matter, see Nomos Kommentar zum Strafrecht, paragraph 86 ziff. 11, Paeffgen (author of the paragraph)

I was kinda pulling your leg with my initial response. This has been discussed many a time on these fora and I was aware of the legal situation.
Doesn't mean it makes any sense. I actually went to see 'er ist wieder da' two weeks ago. Or was it three? No matter. That movie is not more 'educational' than HOI, not by any stretch of the imagination. I consider the german jurisdiction on this matter woefully outdated. Games are the medium of my generation just as TV was that of previous generations. To call the one art and the other mere entertainment, is, to my mind, sheer ignorance. (Not saying you hold these views, just that it's the current view laid out by our legal system).

Edit: and the question that always arises in my mind when this issue is being discussed: how is it, then, that my steam copy of HOI III is completely uncensored?

 

[mdw1985]

That's your prerogative, but I think you'll find yourself in a minority there, even amongst the german forumites. I, for one, wholeheartedly disagree with you.



I was kinda pulling your leg with my initial response. This has been discussed many a time on these fora and I was aware of the legal situation.
Doesn't mean it makes any sense. I actually went to see 'er ist wieder da' two weeks ago. Or was it three? No matter. That movie is not more 'educational' than HOI, not by any stretch of the imagination. I consider the german jurisdiction on this matter woefully outdated. Games are the medium of my generation just as TV was that of previous generations. To call the one art and the other mere entertainment, is, to my mind, sheer ignorance. (Not saying you hold these views, just that it's the current view laid out by our legal system).

Edit: and the question that always arises in my mind when this issue is being discussed: how is it, that my steam copy of HOI III is completely uncensored?

I got a university degree in german law. And you?

Btw, the proof for my coclusions can be found in the commentary for the StGB by Thomas Fischer, who is first judge in a criminal senate of the BGH.

So when it comes to german law, you better be quiet, unless you can show an academic degree in german law as well...

 

[PlacidDragon]

Guys, its really simple. Paradox does what the German law requires of them to release the game in Germany (and Austria i think ?). It is extra work for Paradox to do these things, so if they didnt have to, they would not have done it

 

[Phibs]

I got a university degree in german law. And you?

Btw, the proof for my coclusions can be found in the commentary for the StGB by Thomas Fischer, who is first judge in a criminal senate of the BGH.

So when it comes to german law, you better be quiet, unless you can show an academic degree in german law as well...

For a law degree holder you seem to have an awful lot of trouble discerning what I actually said.
I did not contest any of your factual claims as to the legal situation, now did I? Reread my post if you have to.
In case you still have trouble, let me spell out my view: Yes the law says what you said it says, not that it was news. No it doesn't make sense.

Or you know, you could wave around your credentials some more. That works, too.

edit: In any case I hope the pull a HOI3 and just leave the English version uncensored.

 

[Voigt]

In the World War Wednesday from 17.12.2015 at the time 22:50 - 23:40 they say that the portrait of Hitler and nuclear power are not allowed in Germany.

http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/30241329

That is not true. Only swastikas and SS symbols are not allowed.
There are a lot of games in Germany that show Hitler like Sniper Elite and even HOI3.
Why should nuclear power be also not allowed?

I know the anime picture is a placeholder but with what will it be replaced if Hitler gets removed?

HOI3 had all of this and I can buy it on the German steam store.
Please don't censor what doesn't need to be censored by law in Germany.

About the joke about Nuclear-Power. They don't mean nuclear weapons, they just refered to the "Energiewende" (energy transition) from nuclear and fossil energy to renewable energy, which happens atm in Germany. Because of the accident in fukushima the german government banned nuclear power plants, and want to deactivate them in the next years.

But yeah about the Hitler Portrait, I would dislike to have him censored, I just hope we can "import" the game from somewhere else (Buy from Steam with VPN).

 

[PlacidDragon]

(Buy from Steam with VPN).

ahhh.. i would be very careful with that. Steam has VPN usage listed as a bannable offense.

999 out of 1000 times it might go well, but that one time they see it and say "nope".. thats *really* going to suck if you have a number of Steam games

 

[mdw1985]

For a law degree holder you seem to have an awful lot of trouble discerning what I actually said.
I did not contest any of your factual claims as to the legal situation, now did I? Reread my post if you have to.
In case you still have trouble, let me spell out my view: Yes the law says what you said it says, not that it was news. No it doesn't make sense.

Or you know, you could wave around your credentials some more. That works, too.

edit: In any case I hope the pull a HOI3 and just leave the English version uncensored.

LOL...i read your post and understood exactly what you meant. The jurisdiction is outdated??? I am pretty happy, that we got these laws in Germany, since still some people tend to forget or don't know, what actually happened in my country from 1933 to 1945. You can see youtube videos, where younger people in germany think, that hitler is our actual chancellor...