Celestial Empire means that a province can never be below 50% autonomy.WHAT?
- Thread starter darthfanta
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Presumably giving Ming more but slightly-less insanely rich provinces would alleviate it to some degree: They'd still have the sae wealth, but Spain would only get a couple of rich provinces (With all themaluses inherent) rather than a similar amount of hyer-rich ones.
- people like you and Novacat (in other words "horde fanboys") should finally learn that primary reason of hordes perceived strength and invincibility is not their magical military prowess, but them being nomads(in other words not tied to a land which can be raided like their more advanced neighbors) and inhabiting inhospitable places were it is hard to find supplies for advancing "civilized" army (in other words no typical for euoropean theater of war foraging for you).
So the only realistic way of buffing the hordes are giving them more advanced cavalry types ( after all manchus were considered superb cavalry men even by 19th century europeans and eastern europeans often employed tartar mercs ) with a time and as you darthfanta suggested, giving horde government type an attrition bonus ranging from +3 to +5 (or maybe even more) which will be ignored by the other hordes but will affect invading armies of "civilized" nations.
Not really RussianBias.
Just look how long Kazan survived in irl, and look how it's devasted early in-game by Muscovy... makes me sad for so unfair balance.
Just look how long Kazan survived in irl, and look how it's devasted early in-game by Muscovy... makes me sad for so unfair balance.
I didn't think hordes were invincible, but the ones near China sure did crazy things, even in places that are not steppes.They not only survived massive Ming attacks but ended up conquering Ming itself.For much of Ming's existence, the northern hordes were such a menace that much of the government budget was spent fighting these nomads.
I support the idea of better cav, but the attrition doesn't seem to be a good choice. After all, the Hordes were especially famous for their offensive wars. And yes, the Hordes were very advanced militarily for quite some time compared to other nations. The Mongols had a very efficient army organization and, most of all, did not chose officers solely on their nobility and rank (for some time, at least). Their battle tactics were superior to their neighbors for quite some time, too. Just saying: "they weren't civilized and their land was crap, so they beat the shit out of everyone" is simply to little to explain their success for several centuries.
But then it looks awful, like the current ming being not much richer (or even less) than a full france.
No, by spreading the tax base out on more provinces you can make Ming richer without making it too easy for others to grab insanely high BT provinces.
Consier a few hypotethicals: In one Ming has 10 provinces with a total BT of 200. So each province is 20 BT. Anyone taking a province now has a huge amount of taxvalu.
If Ming nstad has say, 20 provinces with the same (or even better) BT, taking a single province won't be as big a boost.
Basically, giving Ming more provinces means you can decrease the basetax of each individual provinces, making it less of a no-brainer t conquer. And you can still keep Ming total income the same, or even increase it significantly.
Rather than having Ming have the same number of provinces as France, but with twice the BT, you can give them twice the provinces and spread out the BT a bit.
It should be remembered though, that China is either united, or split in half, or in complete chaos by competing claims for the mandate. China has only expanded its core regions, never losing any provinces on a long time scale, so being able to take small chunks out of it is quite unrealistic. Its either total conquest or bust.
Err, no? The peripheral areas (what is today Manchuria, the border towards Korea, the western and southern borders, including places like Yunnan province) has gone in and out of Chinese control multiple times.
Outside of the timeframe we have the european (and japanese) concessions in the 19th and 20th centuries, Tsingtao, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan etc.
Theres also the warring states/warlord periods where there was no unified China at all.
- yes really Rozmarzony, as i said: "nomad raids does not equate euoropean stile war". Irl hordes of EU4 timeframe either raided their neighbors for loot/slaves and than retreated back in their steppes or simply became something else ( Mughals, Quing etc).
- attrition is the primary reason why Russia was not able to completely squish them early on in EU4 time frame. You really should not compare hordes of Medieaval age with hordes of Modern age. Basically in EU4 time frame hordes became eurasian analogue of north american indians.
If UK has India in AoW their autonomy is capped at 50% by the new distant overseas limit. They will also have a hard time raising autonomy in the first place because it's wrong culture wrong religion. So the UK could reach the Ming level only by dint of great effort and it probably wont be the most efficient use of monarch points.
Qing doesn't switch government types, you reform into a monarchy to be allowed to form it and you remain a stock monarchy after doing so. No factions, no inward perfection, nothing, just a big Chinese tech nation (or western if you went that route).
The problem with Qing is that the 15 year truce timer makes conquering China take Manchu over a century longer to do than in history and you have to perfectly re-declare the same month the truce expires or you'll lose all of your special claims, though it's debatable if you'd want to core all that versus vassal --> annex, and ironically pressing claims as Qing generates significantly more AE than simply taking the land as Manchu with tribal conquest AND wars take longer, because tribal conquest superiority >> take province for war score.
Actually, as a horde fanboy myself I'd rather just see some of the asinine nerfs handed to these nations removed, such as the reform requirement for Qing/Persia/Mughals, the legitimacy requirement for reform (the idea group requirement is okay), and make house of peace the double-edged sword pressure cooker it once was. We don't need westernized horde governments back, but 1.8 has told us they're being nerfed YET AGAIN (this time with 25% min autonomy), when everyone other than Timurids underperforms relative to history already. I would certainly appreciate them getting new cavalry over time, but an attrition bonus as large as 3-5% stacking with what the steppes already have would make them ridiculous, no need for that ^_^.
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If we have to shackle Ming by provincial mechanism, that mechanism should stick to those provinces, not to Ming or Ming's government form, so that whoever control those lands face the same penalty. Because, historically, no one else had ruled any part of China's land better than Chinese themselves before industrial era.
I have suggested one possible solution with some historical backing. Quoting from another post of mine:
I have suggested one possible solution with some historical backing. Quoting from another post of mine:
In a typical game Spain reaches Phillipines at around 1650. By that time tech gap between Western and Chinese group is large enough, and Russia has most likely reaches central or east Siberia, so it should be okay to remove the shackles.
Neither Japan (same continent) nor Russia (continuous land) would consider Chinese provinces distant oversea.
The Manchu horde actually went further than that. They weren't simple hordes.They actually adopted european artillery and used them to great effect.Even before they adopted artillery, they were able to defeat large elite Ming army formations equipped with firearms. This is why I think the hordes in northern China, especially the Manchus required a significant buff. They should be able to fight off Ming invasions,perhaps even conquering Ming.
I'm not sure Manchu Astrakhan is an improvement on Ming Astrakhan, though it's probably an improvement on Russian Nanjing.