Celestial Empire means that a province can never be below 50% autonomy.WHAT?

[aitaituo]

Trust me, regions are no where as autonomous than in England,France and Spain for that matter.The local officials can give false reports to the emperor but can't actually defy them if an edict has been drafted.In case you don't know, the Ming Dynasty actually has MULTIPLE MASSIVE secret police networks throughout the entire empire implanted in various ranks of local governments,army units as well as within the populace itself.The secret police organizations include:Jinyiwei,Eastern Depot and Western Depot.

Regardless, there are reasonable historical reasons to put a minimum on Ming's local autonomy and not on England's, France's, and Spain's local autonomy. Though it's a matter of speculation what might have happened if the Ming tried to dramatically change their administrative and economic policies, it's not unthinkable that serious reform would have been on par with what the Westernization process currently entails, meaning many years or even decades of revolts and finally having a practically entirely different type of government without any local autonomy penalties, and less minor reforms would be on par on with idea bonuses.

 

[darthfanta]

Regardless, there are reasonable historical reasons to put a minimum on Ming's local autonomy and not on England's, France's, and Spain's local autonomy. Though it's a matter of speculation what might have happened if the Ming tried to dramatically change their administrative and economic policies, it's not unthinkable that serious reform would have been on par with what the Westernization process currently entails, meaning many years or even decades of revolts and finally having a practically entirely different type of government without any local autonomy penalties, and less minor reforms would be on par on with idea bonuses.

There's actually more historical reasons to put minimums on western European autonomy than Ming's. In case you haven't realized, for much of the period, much of Europe was feudal. It was near impossible for the French King to have more control over the provinces in the early 1600s than the Ming Emperor. The same in regards to England in the period. Charles I of England couldn't even collect taxes from the people if he didn't have the cooperation of the local gentry.

 

[aitaituo]

There's actually more historical reasons to put minimums on western European autonomy than Ming's. In case you haven't realized, for much of the period, much of Europe was feudal. It was near impossible for the French King to have more control over the provinces in the early 1600s than the Ming Emperor. The same in regards to England in the period. Charles I of England couldn't even collect taxes from the people if he didn't have the cooperation of the local gentry.

Didn't one of the early announcements mention that certain government types, e.g. feudal monarchy, have effects on local autonomy?

 

[darthfanta]

Didn't one of the early announcements mention that certain government types, e.g. feudal monarchy, have effects on local autonomy?

It only mentioned hordes and celestial empire in regards to local autonomy.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...Development-Diary-1-Fleets-Autonomy-amp-India

 

[Zwirbaum]

Didn't one of the early announcements mention that certain government types, e.g. feudal monarchy, have effects on local autonomy?

Different government types have different autonomy reduction rates. Some governments (Steppe Horde, Celestial Empire) also have low autonomy cap. (25/50 % minimum) (God why hordes from all the other countries?)

 

[toroltao]

It's a balance issue.

You can argue all you like about local autonomy in the Ming Empire but in the end it's all for moot.

The game is focused around a super simple binary system where the West is powerful and the further you get away from it the weaker you are, disregarding any historical evidence to the contrary.

Hence why the Oirat Horde and Indian nations have better technology than Ming.

If anybody would like to try to convince me that was indeed the case, please go right ahead. Englighten me.

 

[darthfanta]

It's a balance issue.

You can argue all you like about local autonomy in the Ming Empire but in the end it's all for moot.

The game is focused around a super simple binary system where the West is powerful and the further you get away from it the weaker you are, disregarding any historical evidence to the contrary.

Hence why the Oirat Horde and Indian nations have better technology than Ming.

If anybody would like to try to convince me that was indeed the case, please go right ahead. Englighten me.

There are better ways of restraining the Big Ming Blob, namely making it so that apart from altaic cultures or Manchu, you get massive attrition penalties in the northern and western plains while you will get massive attrition penalties for not being a south east asian country in south east asia.

My main point is that paradox and anyone for the matter shouldn't try to justify nerfing Ming the way they did with 'historical accuracy' because their justifications are totally historically inaccurate as explained in my posts.

 

[WeissRaben]

Feudal monarchies should have the same effect, really. With the special exception of France, that - on top of that - has a shitload of provinces at 70-80 LA (but with all the vassals removed).

 

[darthfanta]

Still pretty ridiculous that hordes can have a greater degree of centralization than Ming,whose model of government impressed foreigners.

 

[Tristana]

You need to stop China somehow. A China which worked in the same way as France without any arbitrary limitations and nerfs would just go on a conquering spree and annex all of Asia because no one can ever hope to oppose it. Seeing how that obviously did not happen, and this game sucks at putting a check on power in more subtle ways, China simply gets nerfed to hell. It is ridiculous how weak China is currently, though, I should not be able to invade it as Japan and just tear them to shreds. This isn't the Victorian period.

 

[Novacat]

A player Ming can still own and China while it had a centralized government, regions were still very autonomous as many people have said and had low tax policies. I prefer to have Ming actually hopefully fall the the Manchu then to have Ming rampage across a continent.

It would help if the Manchu actually had decent ideas. Their current national idea set is garbage.

 

[Arilou]

Different government types have different autonomy reduction rates. Some governments (Steppe Horde, Celestial Empire) also have low autonomy cap. (25/50 % minimum) (God why hordes from all the other countries?)

Because hordes are just that. Hordes. If the local chiefs don't like their ruler they can just move somewhere else.

There's actually more historical reasons to put minimums on western European autonomy than Ming's. In case you haven't realized, for much of the period, much of Europe was feudal. It was near impossible for the French King to have more control over the provinces in the early 1600s than the Ming Emperor. The same in regards to England in the period. Charles I of England couldn't even collect taxes from the people if he didn't have the cooperation of the local gentry.

Not quite true. Charles I required the cooperation of parliament, but once their assent was given, taxes could be collected (and have a pretty decent chance of actually being collected) everywhere. There was little opportunity for local gentry to independently screw over the process.

 

[darthfanta]

Not quite true. Charles I required the cooperation of parliament, but once their assent was given, taxes could be collected (and have a pretty decent chance of actually being collected) everywhere. There was little opportunity for local gentry to independently screw over the process.

He couldn't arbitrarily collect taxes on his own without the cooperation of the local gentry.He couldn't even collect ship money properly, which was in theory legal without widespread resistance.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Still pretty ridiculous that hordes can have a greater degree of centralization than Ming,whose model of government impressed foreigners.

Actually this is a baseless nerf to hordes. Ming is at least ridiculously rich and powerful, and is being nerfed as a counter-balance to the previous game where they were France 2.0 in the East with less competition. Hordes? Horde nerfs stopped making sense 9 months ago, but horde nerfs haven't stopped.

It would help if the Manchu actually had decent ideas. Their current national idea set is garbage.

No. Not everything other than France and Prussia is garbage. Other than Prussia, nobody gets more than 5% discipline except maybe Japan (wiki still has them at 10%, pretty sure they're 5% now). 5% tech cost isn't amazing but it's not bad, leader shock and -2 RR are both strong. The other ideas are somewhat lackluster aside from the traditions, which are excellent. This set is significantly better than most non-horde non-theocracy generics, and better than pretty much anything you'll find in India, SEA, or the Middle East. It's better than generic German/Italian (though Italian has a good out), Berber, and even some of the European uniques like Saxony, Brittany, Bavaria, Aragon, and Naples (I mean come on, spy defense and naval morale recovery?).

I'm not saying they can hold up to France, Prussia, Ottoman, Italy, but they're in the top half of NIs, not the bottom half. That's not "garbage", it's average.

Of course, now they're being broken up early on, so we can expect to see Manchu ---> Qing even less, and it's already rare.

Because hordes are just that. Hordes. If the local chiefs don't like their ruler they can just move somewhere else.

How is this different from nobles choosing not to support their monarch? The hard-on for misrepresenting horde capabilities here is really obnoxious, especially because they're already ahistorically weak in the game (Timurids being the sole exception). Hordes were monarchies.

 

[Xaioxaiofan]

Other than Prussia, nobody gets more than 5% discipline except maybe Japan (wiki still has them at 10%, pretty sure they're 5% now).

The wiki is correct, Japan still has 10%.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The wiki is correct, Japan still has 10%.

Wow, for real? That's pretty crazy. I like ROTW as much if not more than the next guy, but that needs to come down, the folded steel nonsense and anime tank-cutting swords doesn't need to actually be modeled in the game, and they get that in addition to -stab cost on the same idea ^_^. -10% stab and -5% discipline (less than this tradition) are both individual NIs in most idea sets, and not bad ones.

Well, for as long as that absurdity is true then go ahead and put Japan up there with the other superpower NIs, even if their starting position is worse (arguably compared to Prussia it isn't).

 

[Tufto]

R.E. the Ming debate: I think deezee pretty handily settled it on the first page, and everyone has decided to ignore it. With regards to balance, it's kinda necessary.

 

[darthfanta]

The wiki is correct, Japan still has 10%.

The Roman Empire still has 10%.

R.E. the Ming debate: I think deezee pretty handily settled it on the first page, and everyone has decided to ignore it. With regards to balance, it's kinda necessary.

The thing is that if you are going to nerf Ming, just say that you are nerfing it, don't even bother to try and justify it as 'historically accurate'.And no, I don't think he handled it well. The truth of the matter is that the Ming government can choose to raise taxes ridiculously high if they wanted. In the last decades of Ming rule, when Ming simply couldn't afford sustaining itself through low taxes anymore, it drastically raised it taxes ridiculously high. Of course though, all it did was increase the burden on the peasantry in a time when the Little Ice Age struck them.

 

[Tufto]

The thing is that if you are going to nerf Ming, just say that you are nerfing it, don't even bother to try and justify it as 'historically accurate'.

Well, it seems as if it is but yes, they are very simply nerfing Ming. Because without it and with the new changes, Ming would become an unstoppable monstrous superpower hell-bent on the destruction and subjugation of all lesser peoples.

 

[darthfanta]

Well, it seems as if it is but yes, they are very simply nerfing Ming. Because without it and with the new changes, Ming would become an unstoppable monstrous superpower hell-bent on the destruction and subjugation of all lesser peoples.

There's other ways they can set about doing it. For one, as I've mentioned, there should be massive attrition rate for Ming in places around China. Historically, these places were in either steppes,tropical areas or deserts.There should also be a buff in the national ideas of the Oirats,Yuan,Manchus and Vietnam. Historically, these countries completely massacred the massive Ming armies sent to subdue them.