Cavalry completely useless in the last tech level 32.

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highsis

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In tech 32, the pipe of inf and cav are similar, however, their combat modifier differs a lot.

fire shock
3.1 2.15 inf
1 5 cav
8.4 0.55 art


in fire phase, inf gets 3.1 + 4.2(half of art) = 7.3 damage modifier. In shock, it is 2.15 + 0.27 = 2.42
on the other hand, cav has 5.2 in fire and 5.27 in shock.

combined, inf has 9.72 modifier while cav has 10.47 modifier.

However, napoleonic infantry has 2 more pipes(3 more in fire def, 2 less in shock, 1 more in morale), and since cav has 29 pipes, 2 missing pipe is a lost combat capabilty of approximately 2/29 = 7%. 10.47 * 0.93 = 9.73. (inf is 9.72)

You can see that at level 32, inf has almost no difference in combat ability compared to cav. However, every battle start with firephase, which gives inf a significant edge over cavalries.

Cavalries have higher maneuver(5 at 32 tech), but it's moot because infantry are better at front battle and their maneuver of 3 is more than enough to chase destroyed enemies. In addition, Cavs are 2.5 times more expensive to build.

Conclusion: at tech 32(Napoleonic era), cav are completely useless unless you have nation ideas that strengthens cav combat ability. You should go for 50% inf and 50% art all the time. Since this doesn't fit the historic accuracy(cavalry was still vital in napoleonic era), I think Paradox needs to buff cav slightly so that they fare slightly better than infs(since they are more expensive units) in combats at tech 32.
 

Novacat

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Cavalry becomes useless a long time before tech level 32.

Even in tech 3 cavalry isnt worth its 2.5x price premium over infantry, and by tech 12 infantry will beat cavalry even 1:1... Cavalry still has its uses due to the flanking bonus, but outside of flanking cavalry is useless.

Note that the endgame optimized build is 34 infantry, 6 cavalry (flanking), and 40 artillery.
 

highsis

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Even in tech 3 cavalry isnt worth its 2.5x price premium over infantry, and by tech 12 infantry will beat cavalry even 1:1... Cavalry still has its uses due to the flanking bonus, but outside of flanking cavalry is useless.

Note that the endgame optimized build is 34 infantry, 6 cavalry (flanking), and 40 artillery.

My point in this thread is that the endgame's optimized build is actually 40 inf and 40 art without cavalries.
 

Novacat

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My point in this thread is that the endgame's optimized build is actually 40 inf and 40 art without cavalries.

I was going to raise a point about cavalry getting a flanking bonus... but I check the EU4 combat mechanics on the wiki and did a double take...

I could not find any reference to a flanking bonus or a cavalry bonus whatsoever.

Or, to be more specific, Cavalry's extra manuver is neigh-useless. It only comes into play if the enemy army is under the maximum combat width, but any serious slugfest between armies will usually have the combat width completely full, thus completely nullifying that cavalry advantage. Especially since units can only attack one other unit at a time.

You are right... 40-40 might very well be the most optimised paradigm.
 

Golladan

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Cavalries have higher maneuver(5 at 32 tech), but it's moot because infantry are better at front battle and their maneuver of 3 is more than enough to chase destroyed enemies.
As far as I know maneuver doesn't affect movement speed.
 

Novacat

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As far as I know maneuver doesn't affect movement speed.

It does not. Its affects are actually obscure, but its basically how far you can target enemies. A manuver of 1 means the unit can only target whats directly in front of them, a manuver of 2 means they can target whats directly in front of them as well as the unit on either side of them (so in total they can target 3 units). Note that, even this, they can only attack one unit at a time.
 

Kraxis

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I was going to raise a point about cavalry getting a flanking bonus... but I check the EU4 combat mechanics on the wiki and did a double take...

I could not find any reference to a flanking bonus or a cavalry bonus whatsoever.

Or, to be more specific, Cavalry's extra manuver is neigh-useless. It only comes into play if the enemy army is under the maximum combat width, but any serious slugfest between armies will usually have the combat width completely full, thus completely nullifying that cavalry advantage. Especially since units can only attack one other unit at a time.

You are right... 40-40 might very well be the most optimised paradigm.
It certainly is if your infantry gets a bonus but your cavalry doesn't. So Sweden, Prussia and Italy should probably not bother with cavalry past MILtech 10 or so. Unless the wars are usually fought with in under-capacity battles where the cavalry can work. But then again, the player often optimises his forces so that his smaller armies beats the larger ones, leading to situations where cavalry once more has no purpose.
The fact is that cavalry, unless significantly better than infantry, has a woefully small opening. Their army needs to be slightly larger, but not significantly larger (or they simply can't even flank) and the enemy mustn't max combat width. Simply put, if enemy infantry face your cavalry, they are effectively wasted as your own infantry does better there. We all know that is night impossible to manage the enemy's dispositions, so why even bother?
 

highsis

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It certainly is if your infantry gets a bonus but your cavalry doesn't. So Sweden, Prussia and Italy should probably not bother with cavalry past MILtech 10 or so. Unless the wars are usually fought with in under-capacity battles where the cavalry can work. But then again, the player often optimises his forces so that his smaller armies beats the larger ones, leading to situations where cavalry once more has no purpose.
The fact is that cavalry, unless significantly better than infantry, has a woefully small opening. Their army needs to be slightly larger, but not significantly larger (or they simply can't even flank) and the enemy mustn't max combat width. Simply put, if enemy infantry face your cavalry, they are effectively wasted as your own infantry does better there. We all know that is night impossible to manage the enemy's dispositions, so why even bother?

Yeah, the only time cavalry will be useful is when your front length matches that of the enemies' and you have extra cavalries to flank. As said in OP, cavalries are worse when fighting against infantry, both with artillery support, and if you have longer fronts that enemies your armies will win anyway without cavalries. Unless you can re-contruct your army fit to deal with enemy army composition cavalry becomes useless as soon as inf+art become as good as cav+art.
 

moyang

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I thought artillery gives half of its defensive pips, not modifier. (that's what the game says)

This does not mean I don't agree with you, cavalry is useless.
 

aitaituo

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Combat is the worst part of EU.
 

lordboy54

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AnguyTheArcher

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Cavalry should be buffed up somehow. While it is true that in mid to late EUIV era, cavalry was unable to stood a chance against infantry in direct fight, it was still very useful for breaking weakened formations, scouting, pursuing fleeing enemy and cover own retreat. In Napoleonic era largest cavalry charges in history took place.

So what about some ideas, how to make cavalry more useful?
1. Make flanking more important than currently. Somehow simulate the cavalry effectiveness when attacking wavering and weakened infantry.
2. Army that has more cavalry should be able to inflict greater damage on fleeing enemy. That means enemies casualties should be increased after the battle is won. Army consisting purely of infantry and artillery should be able to win the battle - but he casualties should be roughly the same for both sides (most casualties happened during pursuit).
3. The reverse should be true, if losing army has cavalry advantage - they should be able to break the engagement retreat before being decimated too much.

What do you think? Do you have any other ideas?
 
Last edited:

unluckz

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I was going to raise a point about cavalry getting a flanking bonus... but I check the EU4 combat mechanics on the wiki and did a double take...

I could not find any reference to a flanking bonus or a cavalry bonus whatsoever.

Or, to be more specific, Cavalry's extra manuver is neigh-useless. It only comes into play if the enemy army is under the maximum combat width, but any serious slugfest between armies will usually have the combat width completely full, thus completely nullifying that cavalry advantage. Especially since units can only attack one other unit at a time.

You are right... 40-40 might very well be the most optimised paradigm.

80 -40 or something like that would be more like it
 

Hopit

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Novacat

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80 -40 or something like that would be more like it

No, its hard enough even finding provinces with higher than 80 supply limit... 70 is the usual max which is why I tend to build stacks of 70K, than with additional 40K infantry reinforcement stacks for the really big battles.
 

aitaituo

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It's very shallow, difficult to influence, and works counterintuitively. See numerous "why do I keep losing" threads. CK2 combat is much more interesting.