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Pandorav3

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I have recently started playing EU3 (divine wind), and picked Holland, as my first choice. I read quite a bit on army composition, and the general opinion seems to be that cavalry are utterly amazing for the first 150 years. However, 100 years into the game (land tech 13 if memory serves), just looking at the stats, my infantry is much greater at shock, fire, and morale in all aspects. Latin Knights just seem useless looking at the stats, yet they cost twice as much to recruit and maintain. Am I missing something that makes cavalry much better?
 

Foogsie

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There are hidden multipliers for this based on your land tech. For example at tech 3 (starting) Cavalry has their shock values multiplied by 0.8, whereas infantry have a multiplier of 0.4. As you get closer to the end game (land tech 61 for example), the numbers are 4.5 and 2.0.

You can see all the numbers here: http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Land_Tech

Cavalry also has a flanking trait that lets them attack one column away in the battle screen, so it's always good to have at least 2 for that.
 

dertechie

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The values aren't hidden (at least, they aren't in HTTT). If memory serves, they're viewable in the military tab, where you pick unit types. They're poorly explained, but not hidden.

You'll note that the fire multiplier is basically 0 right now, and will be until you get LT 18 or so, when you get the first musket infantry. LT 18, if you get there first, is a great time to go on a conquering spree. Holland, as a trading power, is well positioned to get there first.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(297342)

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Cavalry are also a lot worse than they were in IN. If your infantry have substantially more pips, which they will until you get Charge Cavalry, you really only need 4 cavalry per army for flanking. At very low tech levels the extra shock really tells, though.
 

GAGA Extrem

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I read quite a bit on army composition, and the general opinion seems to be that cavalry are utterly amazing for the first 150 years. However, 100 years into the game (land tech 13 if memory serves), just looking at the stats, my infantry is much greater at shock, fire, and morale in all aspects. Latin Knights just seem useless looking at the stats, yet they cost twice as much to recruit and maintain. Am I missing something that makes cavalry much better?
There are modifiers much more important than the unit stats shown in the military screen. These are the fire and shock modifiers from your land tech level, shown next to your current unit model. In general, CAV has twice the shock modifier of INF during the early game, so it deals (roughly) twice the normal damage in combat. This means CAV will give you more combat power per manpower (which can be important for many small and medium sized nations).

Another advantage is that it provides more combat power per frontage: During combat, units are placed in a line facing each other. INF is only allowed to attack a unit in front or one square next to it, CAV may attack 2 squares away, ART is allowed to fire from the 2nd row (with 50% of it's regular firepower). All units that cannot be setup in range during combat will be placed in the second line (reserve) and do nothing until a slot in the frontline opens. This makes CAV even more powerful, let me give an example:

You have 10k CAV, your enemy has 20k INF. Both armies cost roughly the same amount of gold to build and maintain (but keep in mind most natios start with high aristocracy, which makes CAV a bit cheaper than INF in regards to firepower per ducate). But while you can place all 10 units at the frontline, your enemy can only setup 12 INF - the remaining 8 regiments wait in the reserve, doing nothing. So the frontline combat power is 20 (10 CAV * shock modifier 2) vs. 12 (12 INF * shock modifier 1) - despite being outnumbered, you will inflict more casualties to your enemy (assuming both have the same dierolls). In addition, if you have a good general, you will deal even more damage with a good die roll.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are two ways to win a battle: First via morale and second via casualties. INF armies will usually win against pure CAV via morale (esp. once landsknechts are available), but pure CAV will almost always deal more damage until the tacticas modifier is increased for the 2nd time.

This was how it worked most of the time, but this made CAV quite overpowered, so paradox has build in some measures to reduce CAV effectiveness:
(1) There is a modifier called "tactics" that reduces damage taken if you have no more than a certain amount of CAV (40% for latin nations iirc?) in your army. It gets larger as tech progresses and makes pure CAV armies much less effective.
(2) CAV receives doubled terrain (and river crossing / landing) penalties, making them much less effective on the offensive (!) in difficult terrain.
(3) Fire now comes (once again) before shock, so once INF and ART have decent fire modifiers, they will basicly have 5 rounds of ranged combat where they can maul CAV (since CAV has an abyssmal fire modifier and deals almost no fire damage).

you really only need 4 cavalry per army for flanking.
INF can flank since HTTT, so you only need 2 CAV per army.
 

ComradeOm

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I have recently started playing EU3 (divine wind), and picked Holland, as my first choice. I read quite a bit on army composition, and the general opinion seems to be that cavalry are utterly amazing for the first 150 years
That was true for IN (and perhaps HTTT). As of Divine Wind its no linger advisable to go with all-cav or majority-cav armies
 

knul

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As soon as infantry gets more defensive pips than cavalry, infantry becomes a better front line unit than cavalry. From then on, cavalry can be seen as "glass cannons": due to a high shock modifier, cavalry can dish out great damage but due to fewer defensive pips cannot take damage as well as infantry. So cavalry at that point excels at flanking, where it does damage without receiving it in turn.

Another thing to remember is that cavalry receives double terrain penalties and this will perform badly in offensive battles against mountains, over rivers, etcetera.

IMO, currently it's a good idea to have 4 cavalry regiments and lots of infantry regiments in a stack. The infantry holds the line and engages all the enemy front line units, while cavalry stays save and provides additional damage. Having lots of cavalry means that they fight in the front line, taking a lot of damage and means that your army is much more vulnerable to terrain penalties.
 

GAGA Extrem

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As soon as infantry gets more defensive pips than cavalry, infantry becomes a better front line unit than cavalry. From then on, cavalry can be seen as "glass cannons": due to a high shock modifier, cavalry can dish out great damage but due to fewer defensive pips cannot take damage as well as infantry. So cavalry at that point excels at flanking, where it does damage without receiving it in turn.
Not entirely true. INF still has only half the shock modifier during the early game, so even landsknecht INF will take much higher losses than latin knights. They are only a soft counter and have only a chance to win via morale depletion or difficult terrain. In the open, CAV will dominate mixed armies until LT 16 or so, when it is finally feesible to use ART in an mixed army. Without ART support, CAV can still overcome mixed stacks until LT 18 when tactics is increased.

There are three crucial points that will reduce all-CAV efficiency:
(1) LT 13: Landsknecht become available.
(2) LT 18: Tactics increases to 2.0 and ART receives a 1.0 fire modifier.
(3) LT 22: INF receives a 0.5 fire modifier.
 

knul

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Not entirely true. INF still has only half the shock modifier during the early game, so even landsknecht INF will take much higher losses than latin knights. They are only a soft counter and have only a chance to win via morale depletion or difficult terrain. In the open, CAV will dominate mixed armies until LT 16 or so, when it is finally feesible to use ART in an mixed army. Without ART support, CAV can still overcome mixed stacks until LT 18 when tactics is increased.

There are three crucial points that will reduce all-CAV efficiency:
(1) LT 13: Landsknecht become available.
(2) LT 18: Tactics increases to 2.0 and ART receives a 1.0 fire modifier.
(3) LT 22: INF receives a 0.5 fire modifier.

What I meant was that facing equal enemies, a unit with more defensive pips will on average suffer less losses than one with less defensive pips. As defense is only determined by pips, cavalry and infantry are equally good or bad at receiving damage if they have an equal amount of defensive pips.

In your example, a landsknecht regiment attacked by a latin knights regiment will suffer less losses than a latin knights regiment attacked by another latin knight regiment. However, early in the game cavalry is indeed a strong frontline unit because it does so much more damage than infantry it doesn't matter that it suffers more losses.

After LT 18, cavalry becomes less attractive as a frontline unit as it suffers quite a lot of losses when engaged and is especially weak against morale damage. I agree with you that before LT 18 cavalry indeed are indeed the strongest regiment around.
 

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Infantry has been able to attack diagonally as long as I can remember.

That's not quite the same as the flanking mechanism so far as I know it. Cavalry can attack up to two units in on each side of the battle regardless of how many infantry there are. So having two cavalry units on each side (4 total) gives the maximum flanking bonus. Infantry on the other hand can only attack what's directly in front of them, or diagonal, but no further, hence making them less efficient than cavalry if you have more units in the battle than they do. This is what I've always heard. Infantry, so far as I'm aware, just sits on the side until a unit comes up directly in front of it or diagonal to it.
 

King Nothing

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That's not quite the same as the flanking mechanism so far as I know it. Cavalry can attack up to two units in on each side of the battle regardless of how many infantry there are. So having two cavalry units on each side (4 total) gives the maximum flanking bonus. Infantry on the other hand can only attack what's directly in front of them, or diagonal, but no further, hence making them less efficient than cavalry if you have more units in the battle than they do. This is what I've always heard. Infantry, so far as I'm aware, just sits on the side until a unit comes up directly in front of it or diagonal to it.

Fighting diagonally is one step flanking. Cav can flank two steps so it's the same, just a little bit more.
 

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Yes.
I think it was part of the combat rework from HTTT. From this point on INF could act as a flanking unit, so you will only need 2 CAV to take the most outward flanking position two squares away.

What I meant was that facing equal enemies, a unit with more defensive pips will on average suffer less losses than one with less defensive pips. As defense is only determined by pips, cavalry and infantry are equally good or bad at receiving damage if they have an equal amount of defensive pips.

In your example, a landsknecht regiment attacked by a latin knights regiment will suffer less losses than a latin knights regiment attacked by another latin knight regiment. However, early in the game cavalry is indeed a strong frontline unit because it does so much more damage than infantry it doesn't matter that it suffers more losses.
Point taken - and granted. From a pure defensive point of view, that is indeed true. But I guess shorter combat due to higher shock modifier will negate more damage than defensive pipes until the late mid game.
 

knul

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Yes.
I think it was part of the combat rework from HTTT. From this point on INF could act as a flanking unit, so you will only need 2 CAV to take the most outward flanking position two squares away.
That's indeed true in the latest versions of EU3. Still, having 4 cav increases your "firepower" a bit compared to using 2 inf as flanking units.

Point taken - and granted. From a pure defensive point of view, that is indeed true. But I guess shorter combat due to higher shock modifier will negate more damage than defensive pipes until the late mid game.
Actually, I'm not sure if using cavalry as frontline units shortens combat, as they do less morale damage and receive more moral damage later on due to lack of offensive and defensive morale pips. As I have little insight in how morale damage works, I can't say if a cav-vs-inf battle would end because of casualties or end because of morale damage.

Still, good point GAGA Extrem.
 

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Yes.
I think it was part of the combat rework from HTTT. From this point on INF could act as a flanking unit, so you will only need 2 CAV to take the most outward flanking position two squares away.

If I'm not mistaken though, infantry cannot truly flank in game. They can only attack diagonally, which is not the same thing. Up to 2 cavalry units on each side will attack the two outermost units of the enemy line, regardless of numbers. Infantry simply stands there, waiting for a unit to come into range, as to where those four cavalry will always place themselves in the position to attack. This is why infantry is still not quite as good for flanking.
 

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That was true for IN (and perhaps HTTT). As of Divine Wind its no linger advisable to go with all-cav or majority-cav armies

After the about 10 restarts as Muscowy (with the beta patch Golden Horde mechanic), the best way I have found to survive and win is to have an all CAV army.

14 unit all CAV army (using GH's swarm cavalry with two shock pips) and a good general (I have two six shock pip generals at 1460s from all the wars with GH) absolutely shreds anything that Europeans can muster. I have been able to beat down Poland/Lithuania combo + Castille without much trouble.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are in western or orthodox tech, then early all CAV armies will not work. However, many of the eastern nations have superior cavalry and rubbish infantry - making all cavalry armies very attractive.
 

unmerged(281475)

Sergeant
2 Badges
Mar 9, 2011
62
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After the about 10 restarts as Muscowy (with the beta patch Golden Horde mechanic), the best way I have found to survive and win is to have an all CAV army.

14 unit all CAV army (using GH's swarm cavalry with two shock pips) and a good general (I have two six shock pip generals at 1460s from all the wars with GH) absolutely shreds anything that Europeans can muster. I have been able to beat down Poland/Lithuania combo + Castille without much trouble.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are in western or orthodox tech, then early all CAV armies will not work. However, many of the eastern nations have superior cavalry and rubbish infantry - making all cavalry armies very attractive.

As long as you are playing IN (Complete) this is correct. Once you hit HTTT, this is no longer the case.
 

unmerged(120240)

First Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2008
232
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I am totally sold to infantry. I started doing 6inf / 1cav / 1art and at end game, i just doubled this to 12inf / 2cav / 2art.
I thought it was a versatile choice to fight anything and siege forts too, but sometimes on some rather rare occasions i found it slightly weak somehow.. but after some army upgrades (nothing big really, just being around tech 10 or so and grabbing some military upgrades here and there favoring offensive -always- ) it became my official army stack ratio. I could go and add some cavalry or infantry for more offense / sieging power but the attrition/supply limit make you want to stay to 8k-12k stacks for a long time.
Do small stacks, split them between provinces and make them merge for the extra offensive power from cavalry when needed.