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The Yogi

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I'm sure Slavery was an emotional issue for the South, can you have any patriotic sentiment that is not in some sense er sentimental, as opposed to cold logic. Those with large numbers of slaves were probably large land owners, they would still be rich after the peaceful abolition of slavery, especially if there was federal compensation. The poorer whites may or may not have benefited economically from Southern slavery but while slavery lasted, the poorest White, even a condemned criminal had a status in southern society.

Wars probably always have economic causes and interests underlying them, but these become so refracted and distorted through the ideological and political process, that the wars seem insane after the fact.

Excellent point - Have you perhaps read David Landes The Wealth and Poverty of Nations?

Among the cultural reasons (there are many other) for the relative economic backwardness of the Islamic world, he cites the fact that from the time he first becomes aware, an boy knows his social status is higher than half of humanity (females), whereas a westerner can not aspire to any higher social status than he can achieve for himself (obviously, being enormously helped in this by the social position he's born into etc). Landes assumes, it should be said, that the basic economic drive of human beings is a desire to raise his or her social status. Thus the incentive of the average Islamic world man to advance is relatively lower than that of the westerner.

This seems to be a parallel situation. One is reminded of that quote of his father by Gene Hackmann's character in "Mississippi burning":

'If you ain't better than a "nigger" who are you better than?'
 

Arilou

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Excellent point - Have you perhaps read David Landes The Wealth and Poverty of Nations?

Among the cultural reasons (there are many other) for the relative economic backwardness of the Islamic world, he cites the fact that from the time he first becomes aware, an boy knows his social status is higher than half of humanity (females), whereas a westerner can not aspire to any higher social status than he can achieve for himself (obviously, being enormously helped in this by the social position he's born into etc). Landes assumes, it should be said, that the basic economic drive of human beings is a desire to raise his or her social status. Thus the incentive of the average Islamic world man to advance is relatively lower than that of the westerner.

This seems to be a parallel situation. One is reminded of that quote of his father by Gene Hackmann's character in "Mississippi burning":

'If you ain't better than a "nigger" who are you better than?'

To be honest, that implication seems like bullshit: Remember, it was quite recently in western society that women were considered even close to equal to men, and eg. old swedish laws have pretty much the exact same inheritance structure as sharia (IE: Men inherits twice what women does)
 

MacGregor

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This seems to be a parallel situation. One is reminded of that quote of his father by Gene Hackmann's character in "Mississippi burning":

'If you ain't better than a "nigger" who are you better than?'

I wouldn't put much faith in Hollywood's version of history.
 

Arilou

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I wouldn't put much faith in Hollywood's version of history.

In this case there's some evidence for it though: Lots of scholarly works reference the "divide and conquer" strategy of the souther upper-classes.
 

Aristippus

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I know I’m late to the party on this thread, but I felt I needed to address some of the claims on this thread. It’s unfortunately still very common to hear Southern apologists argue against slavery as a cause for the war, as if that institution were somehow tangential or incidental to the conflict. This is absurdly revisionist. The most common refrain concerns the Morrill Tariff of 1861, which supposedly placed an untenable burden on the Southern economy and practically necessitated secession.

It should be noted that a tariff would not directly tax Southern exports of cotton, but rather the imports which the South purchased. So although a tariff would certainly be damaging to Southern agrarian interests (as any tariff is ultimately damaging to a market, although tariffs can be beneficial in developing industry in underdeveloped markets in semi-industrial societies, re: the U.S. Northeast in the 1860s or Japan in the 1880s/1960s), it's effect couldn't be considered enough to destroy the Southern lifestyle. What you would see is the South being forced by market pressures to purchase more expensive American manufactured goods rather than cheaper British goods, leading to Northern purchases of Southern cotton due to the increased demand (likely at cheaper prices than what Europeans would have paid). Furthermore, the Morrill Tariff was actually lower than the Tariffs passed by John Quincy Adams, an administration that, to my knowledge, the South both survived and remained within the Union. In fact, the quoted tariff of 40% was the ultimate rate on most dutiable goods, but that was an increase from 20%, not from 0%. Furthermore, the duties of the period prior to the Morrill Tariff were decidedly low by international standards. As to their effect on the South, it's far more complex than previously stated.

Imagine a textile mill in Pennsylvania that, due to a 40% tariff on British clothing imports vs. the prior 20% ($5 per unit, $6 per unit under the original tariff, 7$ under the Morrill Tariff), is now able to offer comparable clothing at, let's say, $6.50 per unit. Obviously, under the previous tariff, a Southerner saved $0.50 by purchasing from Britain. Under the Morrill Tariff, which leads to Northern goods becoming more competitive compared to British imports, the Southerners now paid a full 8.5% more for their clothing, and see their profit margins slashed. Furthermore, the British, losing a large market for their goods, are forced to cut imports of cotton as their factories shut down. The South, facing falling demand by the British and rising demand by Northern factories fueled by Southern purchases of their textiles, shifts its exports to the North. No longer facing competing demand from British factories, it's likely that cotton prices would fall moderately, since Southern demand for textiles would fall commensurate with the increased cost of purchase from Northern factories vs. British factories. Even in this case, demand would fall less than the 8.5% increase in price would suggest, since there is a certain amount of need for manufactured goods that would cause Southerners to simply change their buying habits. ie. A single Southerner might pay for $0.25 of the 0.50$ extra cost for a unit of textiles by purchasing less clothing, and another $0.25 by putting off those weekly bourbon purchases. This equals a net 4.25% decline in textile demand by the South. As a result, the true decline in Southern demand for textiles would be somewhat less than 8.5%, let alone 20% despite the 20% increase in tariffs and 8.5% increase in textile prices. The 8.5% price increase of my example is simply illustrative; we have no way of knowing the precise changes.

To take this example even further, a 4.25% decline in Southern demand for textiles would not likely lead to a corresponding 4.25% decrease in global demand. Northern manufacturers would likely see an increase in production over and above what a Southern shift to purchasing Northern textiles would suggest for a couple of reasons. First, domestic Northern demand for textiles would likely increase as a result of the increased wealth brought by Southern demand, raising demand for cotton. Second, as the primary beneficiaries of cheaper Southern cotton, Northern factories would become more competitive on the global market, thus leading to more textile exports and concurrently more demand for Southern cotton. Add to this that a decline in British textile production would have an effect on cotton production worldwide, rather than just the Southern United States, and the damage to Southern cotton production is ultimately far less the increase in tariffs.

To reiterate, the maximum potential effect of this tariff is a 20% decline in demand for Southern cotton exports. Naturally, such a decline would be quite destructive to Southern economic interests. Practically speaking however, Northern demand would supersede declining British demand for Southern cotton and Northern manufacturers would supersede British goods in Southern markets, so the decline in Southern exports would be decidedly less drastic. The real damage would likely be to the profit margins of the Plantation owners and, to a lesser extent, the purchasing power of average Southerners. Even then, the effect would be, at highest range of cost, around a 5% decline in demand for Southern cotton, quite possibly much less. In a society as dependent on the export of this one commodity, a 5% decline in gross sales would be a significant cost. It would not, however, be ruinous. Especially in light of prior tariffs being just as heavy, for a Southerner to seriously contemplate secession over a maximum of a 5% decline in net worth is stupid at best, clinically insane at worst. It would be the equivalent of seceding due to the repeal of George W. Bush's tax cuts (from 34% to 39% on the top income bracket).

Tariff issues aside, there was one issue that did seriously threaten the Southern way of life: Slavery. The entire Southern economy was built upon slavery. While fewer than 10% of whites owned slaves, the entire Southern economy revolved around the production of agricultural goods by slave labor. Even if Isaiah Northcutt, white laborer in Charleston, had never owned a slave in his life, he nonetheless saw his wages paid by Slave-owners, his clothes manufactured in exchange for cotton, and his public services financed by taxes raised from plantations. Furthermore, in the South there existed a hierarchy similar to Old World Europe: Plantation owners formed the aristocracy, white freeholders were the gentry, and black slaves were the peasants. No matter how bad your life was, at least you were white citizen. Such a social pact kept class warfare to a minimum, preventing the types of unrest seen in the factories of New England. Truly, slavery was such an integral part of the South that to eliminate it would be to effectively eliminate Southern Society itself.

The election of Abraham Lincoln, a decidedly moderate Republican but a Republican nonetheless, was a wakeup call to Southern elites. For the first time in decades the prospect of abolition seemed possible. Certainly Lincoln himself was no threat to abolish the institution. As has been stated, Congress held no authority over State policy on slavery. The states themselves were roughly evenly divided, with 15 Slave States and 18 Free States in 1860. To abolish Slavery would require a Constitutional Amendment, which itself requires a super-majority in both Houses of Congress, or a 2/3rds vote. In a 66-member Senate, this meant 44 members had to support abolition. With only 36 Senators from Free States, this was impossible.
In addition the two Senators per state leading to the gridlock in the Senate over slavery, the Constitution provided the South with a unique advantage in the House as well, at least initially. Slaves themselves counted as 3/5ths of a Citizen for purposes of re-districting. In effect, this gave white voters in the South extra votes when compared to Northern voters. Prior to the Civil War, roughly one in three people in the South were slaves. This meant that a white voter in the South received the equivalent of 1.3 votes while, obviously, black slaves received none. This meant that the interests of the white majority (and in the case of South Carolina, the white minority), roughly 6 million strong in 1850, punched above their weight at roughly 7.8 million votes.

All of this was, of course, by design. The so-called “3/5th Compromise” was formulated during the framing of the Constitution. The Senate, which has 2 Senators from each state, is unaffected by population. However, the House of Representatives is determined by the population of each state. So, those colonies with many slaves, like Georgia, South Carolina, and Virginia, felt that their entire population, including slaves, should get representation. Since although these colonies had large populations, they had comparatively smaller WHITE populations, it was imperative that they count slaves to balance the large, predominantly white populations in Massachusetts, New York, and Pennsylvania. Naturally, this was vehemently opposed by both large population states with few slaves and the lightly populated New England colonies already dwarfed by the Southern giants, with or without slaves. Every colony sought to maximize it’s representation in the future government, and for slave-owning states, this was an important way to do just that, both on an individual basis by essentially appropriating their slave populations’ votes, and on the state level.

Due to the immense population of the Southern colonies, as well as the economic might of Virginia, the United States could not survive without the cooperation of the South. Likewise, New England, Massachusetts especially, was already becoming a center of industry, including the incredibly important shipbuilding industry. Neither side could afford to completely alienate the other. As a result, the framers finally agreed that each slave would count toward 3/5ths of a vote, neither providing the South with their entire slave population nor completely ignoring it.

This compromise had two major implications. First, it meant that representation of Southern slaveholders and other slave-dependent interests in the House of Representatives was worth roughly 30% more than their population would indicate. Especially in the early years of the republic, when the Southern states’ had a larger white population than the North as well as having 3/5ths of their slave population counting toward their House delegations, this was immensely important. Second, it meant that the Free States needed a smaller population to achieve the same representation as the Slave States. For example, if Virginia had 1 million people, but 250,000 were slaves, and Pennsylvania had 950,000 people, A Virginian voter would have 1.2 votes per Pennsylvanian voter, but Pennsylvanian votes would outnumber Virginian votes by 50,000 despite Virginia’s larger overall population. In essence, the South had gained extra voting power for their individual citizens at the expense of less power overall. Again, this did not become a serious issue until the population of the Northern states caught up and surpassed that of the Southern states.

By 1860, however, the Northern states had not only caught up to the Southern states in population, but surpassed them. In 1850, Free States accounted for 60% of the U.S. population. In 1860 they accounted for an even greater share. As the North Industrialized, and its share of U.S. exports eventually came to overtake the South’s, immigrants, including poor Southerners, flocked to the booming Northern economy. The South, by contrast, stagnated in relation to the North. This was abundantly clear to the leading men of the time, who recognized that were the North to control both the House and Senate, slavery as an institution would be in grave jeopardy. This led Southern politicians to adopt a strategy focused on expansion into the frontier, thereby increasing the number of Slave States relative to Free States and securing the Senate. It was this strategy which led to the many conflicts from the 1830s to the 1850s over expansion, leading ultimately to the Missouri compromise and a rigid, geographical boundary for slavery. So long as the Southern states had a relatively similar population to the Free states, and the number Slave vs. Free states stayed roughly the same, the Presidency and Congress were free from the threat of abolition.

Let me take this opportunity to point out that the North was absolutely opposed to slavery, especially its expansion. This is not to say Northern politicians were principled abolitionists, quite the contrary, they could care less about the plight of the black slaves. Rather, the institution of slavery itself was detrimental to both Northern power and the Northern economy. In fact, Free States still resented the extra power afforded to individual citizens by the 3/5ths compromise, seeing it as an affront to democracy (again, not because of the disenfranchised African-Americans, but because their own citizens had less of a vote). Furthermore, slave labor competed directly with the homesteaders in the Midwest, where the industrialized scale of a Plantation, fueled by the cheapest of labor, could easily outcompete cash croppers in Ohio and Indiana. In addition, the constant clamoring by Southern politicians for more territory grated on the New England capitalists for whom war was bad for business (The Mexican-American War was started largely due to pressure from Southern politicians, eager to annex the huge state of Texas, thereby adding another Slave State. The treaty of annexation even provides for breaking Texas into smaller units, a provision intended to add slave states if necessary).

It was within this context that the Republican Party was founded from remnants of the old Northern Whigs and the defunct Free Soil party. While a large portion of the Republican platform included federal funding of internal infrastructure through high tariffs, a position carried over from the Whigs, they were also the first major party to fervently oppose the expansion of slavery into the territories. The Whigs were split on the issue, as were the Democrats, dependent on whether they were Northern or Southern. The Free Soil party was never viable, having no discernable platform outside of this one issue. However, the Republicans were a different animal, absorbing the Whigs with their support of an activist Federal government (ironically), and the Free Soil party with their opposition to Slave Power. For Southerners, the Republicans would be a disaster. Not only would they raise tariffs, as shown a powerful nuisance, but if the Republicans were elected and prevented the expansion of new Slave States it would only be a matter of time before abolition received a majority in both houses of Congress. Southern slaveholders rightly feared that without the explicit guarantees in place under Democratic administrations, like in Kansas, Northern abolitionists would flood the Border States and overturn slavery. Eventually, the Deep South would exist as little more than a rump, unable to stop the tide of abolition.

The election of 1860 was the wakeup call for the South. Abraham Lincoln won a majority of electoral votes, yet received a mere 40% of the vote. Furthermore, not a single Slave State voted for Lincoln. If things were this bad already, it could only get worse in future elections. Before Lincoln had even taken office, secession had begun.

Considering the ultimately limited effect of tariffs on the Southern economy and the fact that the South seceded prior to Republicans even instituting such a tariff (especially considering that had the South not seceded, it’s unlikely the Morrill Tariff would have even passed), it’s unreasonable to consider this single act as the cause of secession. Far more likely is the Southern realization that their ability to control congress has essentially disappeared. By 1860, and Lincoln’s election, it had become abundantly clear that the North had grown too influential and it was merely a matter of time before the votes for abolition would materialize. Even more worrying, every year the South waited was another year the North expanded its lead over the South. If ever there was a time to leave, it was 1861. By this point, the Southern economy, so inextricably dependent on slave labor, could not afford abolition. Federal economic policy, under northern influence destined to favor a national bank, industry, tariffs, federal infrastructural investment, and free movement of labor, was diametrically opposed to the interests of a slave-holding aristocracy. The same philosophical battles fought between European Aristocrats and the Bourgeoisie in the early 19th Century found themselves playing out again in 1861.

Southern leaders were smart. They knew exactly what industrialization meant for their society. It wasn’t any single bill that lit a spark, but rather a fundamental threat to the foundation of the Southern economy: slavery. If slavery were to survive, then ties to the North would have to be severed. They could see the trends just as we could. To say that slavery did not cause the Civil War is ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst. Slavery wasn’t just a cause, it was THE cause. Every other issue leading to the Civil War, tariff policies, infrastructure investments, territorial expansion, etc… was ultimately driven by Southern society’s dependence on and perpetuation of slavery. This is not to say that the North were saints. The Northern industrialists supported union because it served their purposes, not because it served those of African-Americans’. However, any defense of the South and it’s actions during this time period is an implicit defense of the institution of slavery.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Aristippus,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Since your post is so big, I won't quote it, but refer to points in it.

It’s unfortunately still very common to hear Southern apologists argue against slavery as a cause for the war, as if that institution were somehow tangential or incidental to the conflict. This is absurdly revisionist.

Oh, I know I am not in good company. :)

Furthermore, the Morrill Tariff was actually lower than the Tariffs passed by John Quincy Adams, an administration that, to my knowledge, the South both survived and remained within the Union.

Barely. The 1828 tariff provoked open talk and the first steps towards secession. The only reason the trigger wasn't pulled was because the Southern bloc still had enough legislative weight to sabotage it and, no less importantly, there was the imminent prospect of a southerner (Jackson) taking the White House and reversing it (which happened).

In 1860, the Republican coalition was shatter-proof and there was no prospect of it being reversed anytime soon. Therein lies the difference.

Furthermore, the British, losing a large market for their goods, are forced to cut imports of cotton as their factories shut down.

To be frank, Dixie politicians didn't have Britain's welfare in mind. What worried them to no end was the prospect of being hit with retaliatory tariffs. Which is the way the trade game was (and is) played.

To reiterate, the maximum potential effect of this tariff is a 20% decline in demand for Southern cotton exports. Naturally, such a decline would be quite destructive to Southern economic interests. Practically speaking however, Northern demand would supersede declining British demand for Southern cotton and Northern manufacturers would supersede British goods in Southern markets, so the decline in Southern exports would be decidedly less drastic.

I can't pretend I was able to follow your numbers perfectly. But let me make some comments on this paragraph in general.

Firstly, the British industry was enormous, Northern industry was practically non-existent. There is no way that Northern demand for cotton could plug in that hole, nor the supply of northern goods meet Southern demand. You offer only a promise that "in the long run" Northern industry will might mitigate the impact. Well, as Keynes put it, "in the long run, we're all dead". In the world of political calculation, that prospect is about as comforting and imminent as the second coming of the Christ.

Secondly, notice that in this entire scheme you are asking Southerners to make sacrifices - not only from the tariff, but from twisting the terms of trade (lower prices for what they sell, higher prices for what they buy) - for the benefit of Northern industry. You offer no benefits to the South.

This is an extremely important point. The South might be prepared to make sacrifices for their long-run welfare. But this isn't for southern welfare, now is it?

It is the unfairness of the tax incidence that stuck in the Southern craw. The South makes all the sacrifices, the North reaps all the benefits. Cow grazes south of Mason-Dixie and gets milked north of it. You suggest, by numerical acrobatics, that the size of the sacrifice demanded may not be particularly huge. Perhaps. But they still are sacrifices and you offer no correction of the inequity of incidence.

There is no reason for the South to put up with that. The South has other options. It is, after all, is a compact geographical area. If it secedes, it doesn't have to make any sacrifices whatsoever.

You say it is not sufficient for secession. Isn't it? If, tomorrow, it is arranged that all New York City taxes are now to be paid by residents of the borough of Staten Island and all benefits earmarked for residents of other boroughs, Staten Island would secede immediately from New York City. It has tried to do so before, when the tax incidence wasn't nearly as lopsided as is being proposed here.

Moreover, and more on an emotional level, there is precedent. The American revolution of 1776 had been fought because of unjust taxation and protectionist restrictions. What Northerners were proposing viz. the South was a scheme reminiscent in design of the British treatment of the American colonies. That comparison wasn't lost on Southern agitators and had quite some mileage. If that reason was good enough for the colonies to secede from Britain, it is good enough for the South to secede from the Union.

Tariff issues aside, there was one issue that did seriously threaten the Southern way of life: Slavery.

Fire-breathing rhetoric aside, slavery in the south was never under threat and could not possibly come under threat. It was not on the Republican program. It would be an unprecedented federal power grab, that would not only rally the south together, but also, I predict, shock many northerners to their defense and destroy the Republican party and possibly shatter the union in more pieces.

As you note, a Constitutional ammendment would be required, but you imagine Northern abolitionist sentiment was strong enough muster a 2/3rds majority in Congress? They weren't even a majority within the Republican party. Any amendment on slavery could be easily - easily - killed on the floor in seconds flat.

You are proposing that a Congress many of who's members had recently passed the Fugitive Slave Act, making slavery more acceptable ever, would now do a 180-degree-turn and try to push a constitutional amendment to abolish slavery in the South?

Even if wanted to (which it didn't), even if it could (which it couldn't), even if it did (which it wouldn't), the moment such a constitutional amendment was brought up for discussion, the South could and would secede instantly.

In other words, there was no urgency on that front in 1860. Slavery was not on the legislative agenda, it was not a prospect. Southern representatives could bide their time, playing spoilers in Congress, wait out Lincoln and play divide-and-rule with the Republican coalition. Secession could wait until abolition became a real prospect.

But no. What was on the legislative agenda, the urgent first item of business, the unifying theme of the Republican coalition, a major thing North & South had been fighting over bitterly over the past half-century, a proposal which the South really did not have the numbers or legal means to block, sabotage or derail anymore: protectionist tariffs.

That is the only thing that made secession necessary in 1860.

Considering the ultimately limited effect of tariffs on the Southern economy and the fact that the South seceded prior to Republicans even instituting such a tariff (especially considering that had the South not seceded, it’s unlikely the Morrill Tariff would have even passed), it’s unreasonable to consider this single act as the cause of secession.

That's not true. The Morrill Tariff passed the House of Representatives in May of 1860, in one of the most sectional votes ever recorded. The lead up to it was one of the most bitterly fought vote-counting battles in the history of the US Congress.

The only reason it wasn't passed in the Senate in the Spring of 1860 was because of the obstructionist tactics of a lonely southern senator who chaired the relevant committee kept the bill off the floor. But that battle was lost now. It was going to go through. It was the campaign theme, Lincoln talked about practically nothing else on his victory tour - coupling it with open threats against South Carolina should the latter even think of pulling a similar stunt on that tariff as it had back during the nullification crisis.

And to say it had no impact is ludicrous. It had an enormous impact. The northern US industrialized because of it, while the South slid into nearly a century of poverty and stagnation.

Southern leaders were smart. They knew exactly what industrialization meant for their society.

Yes, they did. It meant their fortunes would be sacrificed for the benefit of northerners.

To say that slavery did not cause the Civil War is ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst.

I don't take kindly to insults. Sir, I demand satisfaction. Bring a second tomorrow at dawn. You will find these to be in working order. ;)

DuelingPistols02.jpg
 
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Abdul Goatherd

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"The Great Compromise" aside: you can't really compromise on an issue that it viewed as profoundly a moral issue with vast impact on a culture's way of life. Solving that problem does not work in a democratic system. Northern agitators like John Brown were murdering their fellow citizens over the issue. A vast, essentially criminal network existed to subvert southern laws (the underground railroad) the fugitive slave act allowed agents to cross state lines and take people who were were eligibly for citizenship in those states and drag them away to be property. Its an insane, unworkable status quo to say "over here we have this industrial/agrarian whatever way of life and feel those people are people and citizens, our neighbors over there respectfully disagree and feel they are property." There's no real "compromise" position.

You make your case well, so let me try a more expansive answer.

True, it may seem odd to launch a war over an apparently "minor" thing like tariffs, when you got something more glaring like slavery in the landscape.

But the mistake is to imagine that the tariff was 'merely' a fiscal point. It was a fiscal point, but one which would determine the character of the country. Is the United States going to be an industrial or agrarian nation? Self-sufficient or entangled abroad? Is the elite going to be composed of arriviste industrialists or enlightened country gentlemen? Hamiltons or Jeffersons? This debate, this tug-o'-war, had been raging from the start of the nation's birth, long before anyone even articulated a thought about slaves.

Tariffs were not just another point in this list, they were the mechanism by which this competition would be resolved. They were the railroad switch that would determine on which set of tracks the country would run. Who wins the tariff question, wins the country.

It is true that tariffs, a number infinitely divisible, seems to have plenty of room for compromise. Unlike the binary of slave and non-slave, tariffs could be adjusted here and modified there to achieve a compromise. But compromises satisfied nobody, and at every opportunity, it was pushed hard in one direction or another. Tariffs were fought tooth-and-nail from the get-go.

Throughout all this, nobody thought of slaves. The issue of slavery-in-itself was interesting only to pious philanthropists and Quakers. Slavery in the West was never a question of morality, but always a question of votes: who gets to win the Senate, who gets to take hold of the rail-switch.

Slavery-in-itself only became an issue late in the day, really the 1850s. But it was not that people suddenly found a conscience where none existed before, they did not suddenly 'become aware' that there were slaves south of Mason-Dixie.


No, slavery only became interesting in the 1850s because it was an insult that one side could throw against the other, not only to cynically win the vote-contest in the west, which had become suddenly quite urgent with the acquisition of Mexican territories, but, even more cynically, to portray their eternal opponents as moral desperadoes. And when the Southerners, affronted, took the bait, finding themselves forced to defend the outrage on their honor, the north gleefully pressed even harder. In the bluster of an outraged duellist, the South took to demanding apology and satisfaction.

That's what was going on in the 1850s. Moral outrage, insults and demands for apology are loud and noisy, they may dominate the press, the pamphlets, they may even dominate thinking, but they should not be confused with the real matters at stake.

Again, nobody in the north, beyond a small coterie of activists, gave a crap about the morality of slavery or the welfare of slaves. They wanted merely to embarrass, to humiliate their opponents, and, above everything, to win - to win control of the rail-switch.

Conversely, was anyone in the South that convinced by the moral righteousness of slavery? Nah. They were insulted. And insults are most stinging when is some truth to them. The insult rocked the self-image of Southern gentlemen, who up to then liked to think of themselves as the enlightened vanguard of the nation, the inheritors of Washington and Jefferson.

I am not saying that slavery didn't matter. Nor am I saying it was a 'trick' to fool anyone. What I am saying is that it was an insult, and never really elevated itself beyond an insult.

In that respect, the morality of slavery plays a role akin to Captain Jenkin's severed ear or the hole in the Maine hull, just a little more sustained and with a slightly more earnest constituency.

How can I relegate it with such certainty? Because the South gave up every point it was making. By seceding, it surrendered the West, it surrendered on fugitive slaves, it surrendered on federal enforcement, it surrendered on policing John Browns, it surrendered on securing the apology and satisfaction, it surrendered on every slave-related point about which it had been hollering so loudly for nearly a decade.

Of course, as you point out, people have done stupid, irrational things, operating out of their gut rather than their head. And certainly the shrieking was intense, people so white-hot mad at each other they couldn't think, talk or punch straight anymore.

I am not ruling out that slavery was a factor. I am just not very impressed by it as a sufficient cause, or even a primary cause. It was the morality play staged while the same old business of tariff calculation went on in the backrooms.

Finally, keep in mind the economic "what kind of country are we" debate, with the tariff as central, was not an unusual kind of debate to have. Practically every country went through it, and nearly just as fiercely. Britain was struggling through the exact same quarrel not long before that. Their centerpiece, their tariff, was the 'Corn Laws', fought tooth-and-nail between the industrial Whigs and the country Tories, 'Lowly Calico-Makers' vs. 'Squire Corn'. Their fierce tussle over British parliamentary reform served the same calculating purpose in British politics as the slavery-in-the-west served in America.

The British Whigs didn't quite have that morally-stinging insult - Lo, slavery! - to throw at Tory noses, as their American counterparts had. But if they had it, rest assured, they would have used it. For God knows, they threw at each other every insult they could get their hands on, and tried to twist everything into a shriek of moral damnation ('dark satanic mills', etc.)

True, the quarrel in Britain did not end up collapsing into civil war. But this is largely by peculiarity of circumstance: the opposing British parties weren't distributed so neatly geographic to be partitionable, and the Tories, although politically defeated, had a safety valve to retire to: East of Suez.

On final point: much has been made of Uncle Tom's Cabin as a bestseller that rallied and changed much northern opinion. But very little has been made of another bestseller, Partisan Leader by Beverly Tucker, which was wildly popular throughout the south.

tuckecv.jpg


It was a fantasy novel, written 1836 and reprinted continuously, depicting a future in which there existed a Southern confederacy broken away from the DamnedYankees. And the cause of the secession of the confederacy? A tariff cleanly identified as the crux of the Southern cause). Not one word about slavery in the entire book. ;)
 
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Arilou

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Abdul, let me put it like this.

Why was the tariff problematic? Because it made things more expensive for the south. Why? Because the south was not industrialized. Why was the south not industrialized? Because they had a slave-based plantation agriculture system instead.

So in the end it comes back to slavery, or rather, the entire southern economical system. (which was slave-based) The southerners at least thought or imagined, that slavery was neccessary for their economic system to continue (and to some degree it was, although they eventually found ways around it, similar to the sugar islands who despite importing "contract labor" declined greatly in importance after the abolition of slavery)

I think the point is that southerners didn't really see a difference: The tariff and the anti-slavery movement was the same thing: What they percieved to be an attack on their agricultural, slave-based society. The tariff would be seen as a way to make slavery unprofitable and attempts by abolitionists to ban slavery could be seen as an attempt to break the southern economy and make tariffs possible. So it's the same thing in the end.
 

Plushie

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Arilou, you're missing the point that those in favor of tariffs and the abolitionists usually weren't the same people. Abolition was the province of small, sectional, religious interests in New England and Pennsylvania. A protectionist tariff policy was the interest of large, urban manufacturers in Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and the cities of the lakes, a huge section of the populated country at the time. And, contrary to the protestations of people in this thread, the Southern political class wasn't stupid, impulsive, or emotional. They knew who it was and from what special interest the people opposing them originated.

It's something of an aside, but I also wanted to point out that the protectionists weren't trying to overcome the 'maturity' of British industry. The same exact machines used in Britain could be and were used in the United States. The main drive behind protection was to overcome the low cost of labor in Britain versus the higher cost of labor in the United States.
 

Arilou

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Arilou, you're missing the point that those in favor of tariffs and the abolitionists usually weren't the same people.

True, in the same way that the american capitalists and soviet bolshevikes weren't the same people. Didn't stop Hitler from seeing a massive jewish conspiracy.

Abolition was the province of small, sectional, religious interests in New England and Pennsylvania.

Definitely, although I'd argue that those arguing for some kind of "At some point, in the future, maybe, gradually, with compensation" abolition would be a bit more numerous. But you're correct in that the activist abolitionists were a very small minority (although a very visible one)

A protectionist tariff policy was the interest of large, urban manufacturers in Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and the cities of the lakes, a huge section of the populated country at the time. And, contrary to the protestations of people in this thread, the Southern political class wasn't stupid, impulsive, or emotional. They knew who it was and from what special interest the people opposing them originated.

They declared a war they lost badly, and decisively. That's not the decision of a calm, dispassionate temperament.

It's clear that by the 1860's tempers were very hot, and that it wasn't a matter of cold-blooded realpolitik but of frayed tempers getting out of hand. (to some degree on both sides)

It's something of an aside, but I also wanted to point out that the protectionists weren't trying to overcome the 'maturity' of British industry. The same exact machines used in Britain could be and were used in the United States. The main drive behind protection was to overcome the low cost of labor in Britain versus the higher cost of labor in the United States.

A low cost of labour that was at least in part fuelled by the expansion westwards and the low price of land that followed...

I do think that it was the question of the western territories that was really what made everyone really angry, the tariff was a symptom of this, and so the various worries over slavery, but the underlying issue was the matter of who would control the destiny of the Union. Once it became clear that southerners wouldn't be able to do so, they tried to take their ball and go home, and Sherman and Grant taught them that no, they're in the game until it's over.
 

Skarion

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So in the end it comes back to slavery, or rather, the entire southern economical system. (which was slave-based) The southerners at least thought or imagined, that slavery was neccessary for their economic system to continue (and to some degree it was, although they eventually found ways around it, similar to the sugar islands who despite importing "contract labor" declined greatly in importance after the abolition of slavery)

Not exactly.

It's to claim that abolishing the slavery in the middle east is the same as to abolish their oil economy. It's not the same thing.

I am a tad drunk at the moment so sorry if I am not too clear, but anyway:

The south had an raw resource production, which is the same kind of system which was used in Poland, Russia, China and most of the world at the time and had been used for centuries.

You don't have slavery just because you have an raw resource production. If you remove slavery you don't suddenly get an industrialized economy. It's not the same thing.

Problem is that the tolls would make the south loose their ability to compete, loose money and make the north rich on the south's expense. The lack of tolls would make the north unable to compete on the global market as Britain etc would continue to out-compete them.

The tolls were needed for the north's industries to survive but was a threat for the life of the typical southerner.

It wasn't anything about slavery, it was all about the basis of the economic systems that divided the US.

You can see the same differences between P-L and the Netherlands and how P-L was affected by said differences a few centuries earlier.
 

Arilou

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It's to claim that abolishing the slavery in the middle east is the same as to abolish their oil economy. It's not the same thing.

Except that the middle-east does not use slaves to work in their oil fields :p Which makes the comparison precisely that of apples and oranges.

It wasn't anything about slavery, it was all about the basis of the economic systems that divided the US.

And the basic of that economic system was: Slavery.

Sure, they could have changed it into a different system (serfdom or wage-labour) but they didn't want to. And why should they? Slavery was working fine at the time.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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And the basic of that economic system was: Slavery.

Sure, they could have changed it into a different system (serfdom or wage-labour) but they didn't want to. And why should they? Slavery was working fine at the time.

The basic difference was export-oriented agriculture vs import-substitution manufacturing. Slavery was incidental. Skarion (tipsy as he might be) is absolutely correct.

To put the focus on slavery is to miss the forest for the trees. There was nothing particularly unique about the conflict in the US. Again, it is the same darn conflict that practically every country has gone through in the transition from commercial agricultural to an industrial economy. Take your pick.

Whenever you have a country that is involved in export-oriented commercial agriculture, we're talking usually about the concentration of vast estates & consequently political power in a rural elite. Whether it is Southern cotton lords, British squires, German junkers, Malaysian rubber lords, whatever, these will invariably translate that power into control of the political machinery of the country. And the first item on their agenda is always to turn the tariff scheme in their favor (the tariff scheme being really the only matter, besides monopolies, that central governments are useful for). And they are always extremely keen on keeping control of that lever, and stopping it from falling in the hands of budding manufacturing interests, who are just as keen in the opposite direction. Corn vs. Cloth. Cotton vs. Cloth, what have you, it usually boils down to a bare-knuckled fight over tariff schemes as the mechanism for or against industrialization. It is the same story everywhere.

The US Civil War was just the country getting rid of a politically-powerful plantation elite that had, for over half-a-century, been stubbornly obstructing their progress to an industrial economy.

Fact is, the process of industrialization has been fiercely resisted by such an elite in every country you can care to name. In almost every case, industrialization requires, as a preliminary, the forcible breaking of the power of the landed agricultural elite. Whether by war (US), by coup (South America), by land reform & revolution (Russia), by wholesale expulsion of the elite (Korea, Malaysia), by crafty cooptation (Germany), or by using mob agitation & changing the political process entirely to undermine the basis of their power (Britain, etc.)

The peculiarity of the Southern US wasn't really slavery. It was that it was a compact geographical area within a federal system which seemed to offer the fallen plantation lords an easy ticket out : secession. An avenue that was usually not available to other toppled elites.
 
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Abdul Goatherd

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There was a difference between Britain and America though, in Britain the Capitalists wanted free trade and opposed State manipulation of the economy.

Indeed, it was the exact converse case. But in both cases it was a bitter fight over realigning tariff policy to their interests.
 

gagenater

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There was a difference between Britain and America though, in Britain the Capitalists wanted free trade and opposed State manipulation of the economy.

Not entirely. Early in it's industrialization the British had substantial tarrifs on imports of manufactured goods; particularly clothing and chinaware. The British capitalists only advocated free trade once they had other competitive advantages over their potential adversaries.

Also the free trade that the UK had at the time the US civil war took place was in agricultural products. That's what the corn laws were about. Before the capitalists won, the UK had high tarrifs on imported foodstuffs, to support the landed aristocracy and to provide food security for the islands. After the industrialists won the UK had high tarrifs on imported manufactured goods and low (or no) tarrifs on imported agricultural goods so that labor that had been working in the countryside could be freed up to work in factories. Not until the late 19th century when the UK was the acknowledged 'workshop of the world' did tarrifs for manufactured goods start to fall.
 

Arilou

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There was nothing particularly unique about the conflict in the US.

Except that it was the only one to turn into a nightmarish industrialized war with more than half a million casualties.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Except that it was the only one to turn into a nightmarish industrialized war with more than half a million casualties.

Well, Russian Civil War killed several millions.

That said, war came because of the secession. The question is why secession.
 
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gagenater

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Well, Russian Civil War killed several millions.

That said, war came because of the secession. The question is why secession.

Believe it or not I was thinking the same thing in the shower last night. The Red's represent the common industrial worker and the primacy of central factories, the whites the landed aristocracy. All the main centers of Red support were the cities, and the whites generally held the countryside. There are good reasons why once the Red communists took over all the landed aristocracy fled, and all the Kulaks (freeholders, gentleman farmers, whatever you want to call them) got killed. The very next step of the Red's was a concentrated program of industrial growth. The existance of Communism confuses and obscures some of the fundamental issues in the Russian revolutions. I didn't want to post it though because it's a bit OT for an ACW thread.
 

Arilou

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Should I point out that both of them could be shoehorned into marxist analysis rather easily? (hmm... In way that would make the russian revolution a bourgesie revolution, although headed by avowed communists. Interesting)