Caucasus region and Georgia

[Pharnavaziani]

hello CK2 and EU4 are my favourite games, I am from Georgia and I just have to say one thing and I am very surprised I am the first one writing about this because Caucasus region in the game really needs some correction...with each patch the game gets more evolved and more accurate both by gameplay and historically, so I wanted to say that there is one mistake with Georgia from the earliest year it shows that Tao province has Armenian culture and it also shows as if Bagrationi dynasty was Armenian at first and became Georgian later which is a very big mistake and is historically very innacurate, in opposite Armenians had Bagratuni dynasty which was descended from Georgian dynasty... we can check the whole genealogy here:
http://www.royalhouseofgeorgia.ge/p/eng/439/genealogy
here is whole genealogy and history of Bagrationi dynasty so please that kind of mistake is heartbreaking for our people while this game is very popular here... I would be very thankfull if you would fix this mistake in the upcoming patches, not just Tao-klarjeti province or Tao but Lore and eastern Georgia "Hereti" which is called Albania/Albaneti in the game have Armenian cultures which is also big mistake, first of all Albania was never in that location it was in the very east Caucasus in territory of Shirvan region and in that time it was not even called like that anymore, it was called "Rani" when it was vassal of Georgia after 12th century and later on it incorporated into Shirvan state, also culture in Albania was Caucasian Albanian and not Armenian and their religion was eastern Orthodox christianity just like Georgians... so the province of Albania in the game should be called Hereti and it should have Georgian culture just like Lore and Tao ofcourse from earliest middle ages also it was like that...there was only one time when Tao and Lore was part of Armenia it was during Tigran the great of Armenia(who was Before christ) and he conquered south Iberian(Georgian) lands and after his death Iberia returned it once again... culture in that provinces were always Georgian and ethnically Georgians lived there,there was second period when Armenians ruled Lore province which was in 9th century but it was conquered land and was never ethnically Armenian land. Gugark as they called Lore, Gugars were a Georgian tribe which is proven fact by multiple historical sources and supported by Medieval Armenian historians themselves

here is video which explains it well.
also Kartli and Kakheti provinces have very wrong locations, Kartli should be in the center of Georgia and Kakheti should be to the east of it and Hereti more to the east,here I will show the map of that period exactly
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Caucasus_900_map_de.png
Tbilisi was Arab ruled and it is shown clearly by its name Tbilisi emirate, in the game it is called Kartli it would be correct to call it south Kartli and there where is kakheti in the north, should be called north kartli or just call Tbilisi province Tbilisi like on this map and change name of Kakheti into Kartli and ofc Albania into "Kakhet-Hereti" like it is on this map when these 2 united https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ap_de.svg/2000px-Caucasus_1000_map_de.svg.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Kartvels
in this Kingdom of Tao-Klarjeti everything is Georgian except Taron, the most very southern part near lake Van it was conquered land by Georgian King.
now again about Bagrationi dynasty the founder of Armenian Bagratid dynasty or Bagratuni is Ashot I of Armenia which was only in 884-890 while Bagrationis were in Georgia since 575-590 Guaram I Kurapalate Bagrationi Grand duke of Kartli whos ancestors are the Bivritiani dynasty of south Georgia Odzrkhe(Tao region)

8th century is period when Georgians are getting independent from Arab and Byzantine rule and 4 Kingdoms and duchies emerged of west Georgia, Tao-klarjeti,Kakheti and Hereti... Tbilisi and Southern Kartli remained under Arab rule until King David the upbuilder had returned Tbilisi in 1122
http://archive.worldhistoria.com/uploads/20060726_053007_davit_IV2.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...lt.svg/2000px-Caucasus_1124_AC_en_alt.svg.png
this are maps of Georgia in the end of David's reign with Alania and Ran as his vassals, in game this is not considered at all while David was one of the if not the best ruler of Georgia after him started to Golden age of Georgia he rooted it and the miraclous victory in Didgori valley the didgori battle where he defeated about half million Muslim coalition army of Arab and Turkish countries...
before him Georgia was united during King Bagrat III in 10th century before the Turk-seljuk migration he had control over every Georgian land except Tbilisi, Tbilisi still stayed in Arab rule.
later during Queen Tamar Georgia does get some more lands but thats not enough and gets much fewer lands then it had Historically
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Georgian_empire_with_tributaries.png
this is map of Georgia in Tamar's reign together with it's vassal tributary states, Trebizond empire was created by Queen Tamar Georgians had conquered Trebizond and kicked out pro-Byzantine rulers and put pro-Georgian ruler of Komnenos dynasty who was cousin of Queen Tamar from mother's side and created Trebizond empire which was under influence of Georgia till the end. later on during Tamar's sons reign Lasha-Giorgi he accidentally got wound from one clash battle with Mongols who had moved in borders of Georgia and died after couple days in Tbilisi after him his sister unexperienced woman who had been raised to get married since childhood and did not know how to rule country because of her mistakes all of Georgia except western Georgia had fallen under Mongol rule for the next 80 years only western Georgia remained independence... but golden age of Georgia didn't end there during King Giorgi V the Brilliant Georgia managed to regain all of it's strength and by help of his diplomatic talent Georgia had returned all vassal states in Caucasus with influence over Trebizond empire too and even got the Holy cross monastery of Jerusalem back to Georgians
http://s59.radikal.ru/i163/1109/79/47d3ff246b1b.jpg this was his reign and map with his vassal states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_V_of_Georgia Georgia had remained like this as dominant power in Caucasus till 1380 until war with Timurlange but we don't need that info here... Caucasians as seen on the map were vassals of Georgia and north Caucasians were Orthodoxs like Georgia and carried flag of Georgia with st.George on it in battles Shirvan and Shaki were muslim states but also vassals...

generally this is all I have to say I really hope Paradox will not ignore this issue and fix it for the future patches I and lots of more people would be very thankfull

if there'll be any questions Im always here to help
I think this is very important because most of these are elementary mistakes, it is like making Madrid have French culture or Milan to have German culture and so on which doesn't make sense

 

[Pharnavaziani]

in 769 beggining of game, Adarnase I or Atrnerseh of Tao it is true that he was nephew of Smbat of Armenia from Bagratid dynasty but he himself was of Georgian culture and orthodox he asked lands in Tao to Archil Khosroviani(Chosroyd dynasty) in term to be his vassal, he was not vassal of Smbat he was vassal of Archil from Kakheti Tao, Lore,Kakheti Kartli were Georgian provinces and ruled by Georgians, so in the game Atrnerseh should be vassal of not Smbat of Armenia but of Kakheti and Kartli of Guramiani and Nerseiani and he should have Georgian culture together with the province and Iberia(Georgia) itself was vassal of Arab ruler ofc together with Armenia and Albania not under Armenia like it is in the game but equally of Armenia... where Albania is in the game there should be Kakheti and where Kakheti is there should be Kartli and where Kartli is there should be just Tbilisi, anme of province also... Albania was in the east where Shirvan is there should be Albania if truth and they also didn't have Armenian culture they had Albanian culture and their religion was orthodox Albanian culture was in Dagestanian culture. So Im not denying that Bagratid dynasty ruled Amenia for long but just for info they were descended from Georgian Bivritiani dynasty just like Georgian Bagrationis who were grand dukes of Kartli(Iberia) from 6th century Guaram I kurapalate whos father was from Georgian Bivritiani dynasty ancestor dynasty of Bagratids,Bivritianis were dukes of Odzrkhe in south west Iberia in 3rd century BC and originally they were from Georgian region of Speri in south Georgia in Tao. thats all

 

[Pharnavaziani]

even in the game wiki info on Atrnerseh tells he is Georgian but in game he's still Armenian which is funny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adarnase_I_of_Tao-Klarjeti

 

[Pharnavaziani]

Also Georgians have never been heretics or ironclast christians we were always Orthodoxs and Anchabadzes are no exception in game Abkhazia starts as Iconclast rulers from Anchabadze dynasty which is 100% wrong, christian heresies have never been in Georgia and among rulers also

 

[SBolshevik]

Might I merely ask you to make your points more concise? Or, you know, at least divide your post into sections, because this all just looks like a wall of text and is really hard to actually put together into one whole unit. Adding tags to the pictures would also help.

I would also like to ask where you get your claim that the Bagratuni came from the Bagrationi and not vice-versa, because from what I've seen the general concensus is that the Bagrationi are in fact a cadet branch of the Bagratuni dynasty.

 

[Pharnavaziani]

I already noted that Adarnase I was indeed descended from Armenian Bagratids but he himself was Duke of Tao and considered himself Georgian and was orthodox just like his son Ashot I who later became King of Kartvels(Tao-Klarjeti) which already proves he was of Georgian culture. but "Bagrationi"s ruled in Iberia before Adarnase I the first representative was Guaram I Kurapalate in 575 and his descendants stayed as Grand Dukes of Kartli till the beggining of 7th century it is all well described in Bagrationi genealogy that I sent, also Guaram I Kurapalate of 6th century was not descended from Armenian Bagratunis he was directly descended from Georgian Bivritianis from his father's side...
Now about origins of Bagratunis themselves, Bivritiani is ancestor dynasty of Bagratids, it was an Iberian Feudal family representatives of this family were rulers of Georgian Principality of Odzrkhe (Odzrakhe) since the 3rd century BC and originally they were from southern Georgian region from Speri (now Ispiri)... I have read also how Armenians wrote that as if Speri was upper Armenian region which is a false claim, Iberia word itself for Georgians comes from region of Speria, Greeks pronounced it as Hperia which later on became Iberia... and also Odzrkhe principality was part of Kingdom of Iberia(Kartli)... Bagratunis of Armenia first appeared only in 4th century at earliest date which were a branch of Iberian Bivritianis

 

[Pharnavaziani]

http://geonumismatics.tsu.ge/en/catalogue/types/?type=16 "in the early years of the 3rd c. B.C. the northern and southern kingdoms of Kartli (Iberia, East and South Georgia) were united under Pharnavaz from the city of Mtskheta (northern kingdom), the first king of the Pharnavazid dynasty. Azo, the southern sovereign, seems to be killed in skirmish. Pharnavaz, now victorious, gratefully adopted his sons and kept them within the native domains as the dukes (residing somewhere in Klarjeti (now in Turkey) and possessing some more appanages in Speri (Ispir district)). Bagrat (Bagadat) Pharnavaziani, Bivrat (Biurat), Sumbat (Smbat) – these are the names of the first men from Bagrationi ruling clan. Sumbat revolted against Mtskheta overlordship, supported by Artaxias, the Armenian king; and thus Vitaxate of Gogarene (southern parts of Georgia) had emerged." I finally found it in English here I think there will be no more doubts about this now. the Bagratunis are descendants of Sumbat Bivritiani Iberian Feudal who had revolted against Mtskheta supported by Armenian King, that is how Bagratids first appeared in Armenia
So in genealogy of Bagrationis also when you open the genealogy tree in the game in the very top it is Sumbat I from 4th century which has Armenian culture and Mazdean religion, he must have actually Georgian culture and Pagan religion as Georgians were georgian Pagans before christianity but it is not that important

 

[Pharnavaziani]

I wrote big text because Georga in game has more then 1 concrete problem

 

[SBolshevik]

I'm not saying the amount of text is bad, but it's all just one big block of text which makes it a lot harder to read. Keep in mind that PDS has a limited amount of time to actually look around the forums, and having a post that is visually easy to read means that it'll be more likely to actually be looked at by the devs themselves.

I'd also remove that video, not because there's something necessarily wrong about its premise, but because such videos can often be untrustworthy and represent absurd irredentism. It just isn't something that's supporting your argument all that much.

 

[Pharnavaziani]

Ok then I will make it short like this, what I wrote above let it be like description
1.problem with wrong location of provinces in Caucasus and wrong cultured provinces most of them of Armenian culture which is wrong. including Albanian provinces
2.wrong culture of rulers for Georgia and vassals of wrong characters like Atrnerseh for example which has to be vassal of Georgian Kartli not Armenia and of Georgian culture, also Anchabadze Dynasty who have Iconclast religion together with other counts and dukes of Abkhazia which is wrong
3.too small lands in strongest periods for Georgia it is all written above, 12th-13th centuries and then later after Mongol invasion in 14th century 1330-1380.
also atleast an alliance with Trebizond empire as it was Georgian influenced...
well most importantly I think characters and provinces have to be fixed in the very first place