• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

pengoyo

Penguin
71 Badges
Dec 9, 2015
1.337
4.016
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
I think the Anatolian and Caucasian Cultures should be split off from the Persian Culture groups into their own culture groups (I have thought this for a while, but am suggesting it now as there seems to be plans to make multicultural kingdoms more interesting). Currently in the Persian culture group there are 4 language families, (Northeast Caucasian, Northwest Caucasian, Kartevalian, and Indo-European), Note, Northwest Caucasian isn't really represented which I'll discuss below. The Indo-European languages in the Persian culture group are from 3 major branches (Anatolian, Armenian, and Iranian). While this isn't the only culture group to include very distinct languages, Tocharian in the Scythian culture Group & Etruscan in the Italic Culture group, these are either because they would otherwise be in a group alone (Tocharian) or, I'm guessing, unclear classification with a shared Religion (Etruscan, Ligurian, and Rhaetian; IMHO these should also be split off from Italic, but I don't know as much about that so I'm not going to discuss that). The Persian culture groups distinct languages/cultures don't fit either of these.

The Persian culture group is currently the largest and arguably most diverse which is an odd combination as I:R seems to favour more closely related languages/cultures in the larger groups (I'm pretty sure this is to help split up extremely large groups, like how the Celts, a single branch of Indo-European, is split into 3 culture groups). My only guess as to why the Caucasian and Anatolian languages are in the Persian culture group is due to the idea that these cultures have been culturally influenced by their time under the Persian Empire. If this is the case, I don't think this is a good reason as the Scythians and Bactrians are more closely related to the Persians (all are Iranian) and the Scythians and Bactrians are each in their own culture group; also there are better ways to model the influence of Persian on this region in game which I'll get to below. But first I want to cover how exactly I'd divide the Persian culture group up.

The cultures currently in the Persian culture group fall into these linguistic groups:
Northeast Caucasian: Albanian
Kartevalian: Colchian & Ibero
Armenian: Armenian
Anatolian: Cappadocian, Carian, Cilician, Isaurian, Lycaonian, Lycian, Mysian, Pamphylian, Paphlagonian, Phrygian, & Pontic
Iranian: Agartian, Amardian, Cadusian, Carmanian, Cossian, Elamite, Gedrosian, Hyrcanian, Median, Pactyan, Parecanian, Parthian, Pasargadi, Sarangian, Sattagydian, Utian, & Uxian

Now while language is a huge part of culture, it is not the only thing that makes up culture. Additionally, I:R seems to prefer cultures not be alone in their culture group (only Aestian is alone its culture group, but most of its culture group is currently off map). So I thinks there is some freedom to fold some of the more minor linguistic groups into larger ones.

Armenian can be folded into the Anatolian group. This is partially because Armenian and the Anatolian languages are both Indo-European, and partially because there is some evidence of early influence of Anatolian languages on Armenian, meaning they have probably been in cultural contact for a long time.

Northeast Caucasian can be folded into Caucasian group with Kartevalian. Though Northeast Caucasian and Kartevalian (sometimes called South Caucasian) are part of different languages families, they have been in contact for a long time allowing for a lot of both cultural and linguistic exchanges (in game they have a shared religion). These 2 plus the 3rd endemic Caucasian languages families are often grouped into Caucasian for this reason. Now I mentioned the 3rd endemic language families, but so far we have really only talked about only 2. The 3rd language family, Northwest Caucasian, has no representative in IR despite the fact that it is thought to be around during this period. Now there isn't any solid evidence, but the Heniochi in the northwest Caucus on the shores of the black sea are possibly the ancestors of the modern Abkhaz people, a Northwest Caucasian people (in game there is Heniochia, but its culture is Colchian). I think adding the Heniochian as a culture within the Caucasian culture group would be nice nod to this and would add one more culture to the Caucasian culture group (the Caucasian culture group wouldn't be the smallest culture group in IR, but it is below average). I'd recommend all the major families of Heniochia and all the Colchian pops in the province of Abasgoi (which contains Heniochia) be changed into Heniochian.

My recommended culture groups:
Caucasian: Albanian, Colchian, Heniochian, & Ibero
Anatolian: Armenian, Cappadocian, Carian, Cilician, Isaurian, Lycaonian, Lycian, Mysian, Pamphylian, Paphlagonian, Phrygian, & Pontic
Persian: Agartian, Amardian, Cadusian, Carmanian, Cossian, Elamite, Gedrosian, Hyrcanian, Median, Pactyan, Parecanian, Parthian, Pasargadi, Sarangian, Sattagydian, Utian, & Uxian

This would leave the Persian culture group with cultures that are more closely related to each other than to any outside the group. It would also still be an above average sized group. As for how we would show the influence of Persian on Caucasian and Anatolian, it would be multi-pronged. First these two new culture groups would still use the Persian military ideas (this would keep them as possible satraps, which is even more useful for a re-emergent Persian empire as it would save them from dealing with any unhappiness due to cultural difference). Second there is already the Zoroastrian religion scattered throughout the region. But a proper Persian culture should lightly sprinkled in too. This should be mainly aimed at the capitals of the kingdoms in the Caucus and Northern Anatolian. This is to represent the Persian that were not kicked out as these kingdoms were largely ruled by the same people as when they were Satraps of the Persian empire due to the fact they simply just declared their independence and were not conquered by Alexander. Additionally these kingdoms should have one of the major families be Persian. It's been less than 30 years since these kingdoms became independent so they are likely to have major families that are Persian who have not yet assimilated into the local culture (Armenia might even be ruled by such a family). It would also make these kingdoms a little more interesting and unique as they would have to deal with a multicultural power base (similar to but not the same as Egypt).

I think this could nicely compliment the dev's work on cultures, especially multicultural states, they have mention coming up in the future. If this is too late of a suggestion for that, it could work nicely along side an update that added events to simulate all the title claimant in other kingdoms courts in Anatolia during this period as well as the rise of the Mithridatic Pontic Kingdom.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Upvote 0
Jan 4, 2020
1.900
3.663
Completely agree with splitting and revamping this enormous Persian culture group. And, since we're talking about culture groups, I would like to add some of my suggestions for other regions:

Iberia (full topic here):
Culture:
-Ibero-Celtic group: Gallaecian, Asturian, Cantabrian (currently Pre-Indoeuropean), Autrigonian (currently Prre-Indoeuropean), Vaccaeian, Celtiberian, Carpetanian, Turdulian, Celtician, Lobetanian, Vettonian*, Lusitanian*.
*-(Possible) Pre-Celtic group: Vettonian and Lusitanian.
-Iberian: Indiketian, Ausetanian, Ilergetian (currently Pre-Indoeuropean), Ilercavonian, Edetanian, Contestanian, Bastetanian, Oretanian, Turdetanian**, Couneian**.
**-(Possible) Tartessic group: Turdetanian, Couneian.

Religion:
-Iberian tribes should still be Iberian, Pre-Indoeuropeans (Vasconians and Aquitanians) could use their own new religion, but not Iberian (there are Eastern Mediterranean and Punic influences in Iberian religion). Ibero-Celtics should use their own non-Druidic celtic religion (they were disconected from the Druidic cultural phaenomenon that took place in the rest of Celtic Europe).

Dacia and Thracia (full topic here):
Culture:
-Split Thracian into Graeco-Thracian (Hellenic group) and Old Thracian. Maybe do the same with Bythinian.
-Daco-Thracian group (currently named Dacian): Old Thracian, Dacian, Getian, Triballian, Moesian, Old Bythinian, Harpian.
-The Kingdom of Thrace should have Macedonian or Thesalian (the same as Lysimachus) as the state culture, or use the new Gaeco-Thracian culture. Odrysia should be Old Thracian.
-Byzantion and Chaldedon should have the same culture as Megara (they're both Megaran colonies), which, in my opinion, should be Achaean.

Religion:
-Something similar as it is right now, some of the Daco-Thracians being Zalmoxian and some of them Hellenic (those who are closer to the Hellenistic world).

We've posted a reply to your proposal on Dacia and Thrace in your thread. Would have posted some thoughts on Iberia as well. But there's a warning that it's an old post. Would you allow us to reply there (so it doesn't get locked as necro)?
 

Vityviktor

General
107 Badges
Jul 18, 2011
2.079
3.864
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • BATTLETECH
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Surviving Mars
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
We've posted a reply to your proposal on Dacia and Thrace in your thread. Would have posted some thoughts on Iberia as well. But there's a warning that it's an old post. Would you allow us to reply there (so it doesn't get locked as necro)?

Of course, thanks!