Catholicism is too weak in the 769 start

[IndigoRage]

Only in 732 the Franks stopped the muslim world conquest attempt by crushing them at Tours.
(as it's likely the muslims would have erased most evidence).

Mostly a good comment but, for one from what I've heard there's nothing to suggest the force fought at Tours wasn't just a raiding party.

Also not sure where you're going with the assertion Muslims would erase the memory of Christianity. We know about Ba'al, and Moloch, and Gilgamesh do we not? About Ahura Mazda? Zoroastrianism was in a position of strength close to Christianity when the Arab invasions started, but people still remember Zoroastrianism and still worship Ahura Mazda.

 

[viola]

Catholicism did not exist up to .. 11th century.

Christianity was a Roman Religion ruled by Roman Emperor from Constantinople.

So it's crazy that Paradox implemented Catholicism so early.

The Roman Pope had been acting independently from the Byzantine emperor in Constantinople for many years and long before the 11th century.
There was also a guy called Charlemagne and a bunch of independent Western European kings who answered to the Pope and never to Constantinople.

So, yeah. Catholicism effectively existed long before the formal schism.

 

[Byzantium2000]

The Roman Pope had been acting independently from the Byzantine emperor in Constantinople for many years and long before the 11th century.
There was also a guy called Charlemagne and a bunch of independent Western European kings who answered to the Pope and never to Constantinople.

So, yeah. Catholicism effectively existed long before the formal schism.

I mean to be fair he was still recognized as the pentarch of Rome pre 1054 and had Western Europe under his jurisdiction with Acknowledgment from the Emperor. Bari and the Byzantine territory in Italy were transferred to the popes jurisdiction in 1030 while still being under the emperor. They still acted like different rites in the same church just with some fights thrown in there. I think two religions with a dynamic schism bar where on one end their so close they can join each other’s holy wars but on the other end can holy war each other among other things.

 

[Ursul]

I think two religions with a dynamic schism bar where on one end their so close they can join each other’s holy wars but on the other end can holy war each other among other things.

That would be an awesome mechanic!

 

[HGD3ATH]

I always find it interesting how our experiences tend to vary so much. For me, in the past few games I've been running, Catholicism never falls apart. In my current game as a rampaging Norse Fylkir/Fylkja (867 start), I've overrun literally half of the Catholic world, including territory belonging to the many kingdoms that mass converted to Catholicism; I've also been raiding incessantly. The Catholic MA still keeps jumping back up to 50% and they have lost zero ground to the Muslims or Slavic pagans (the latter of whom are slowly dying out). In my last 769 game, it was even worse because Charlie just united the HRE and annihilated the Umayyads. I couldn't fight him after that.

I did see the AI (somehow) reform Germanic in one 769 game though. Saxony had defeated Charlie and then started holy warring Germany to annihilation, and when the Viking Age triggered the Norse invaded and overran Britain.

What kills the MA is cancelled crusades and at the start if the pope cancels one or two suddenly they are facing constant heretical rebellions which weakens and distracts them. The caliphates do not seem to have this problem so they just blob like crazy and sunni MA is really high. In one of my games at 769 start the HRE become sunni and in another most of the british and Irish isles was Lollard and most of Austria was Fractelli.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

Catholicism would be much more stable if they moved the Holy Site in Santiago to somewhere else, probably somewhere in Aquitaine.

Between Jerusalem and Santiago, Catholicism has a -20% in the two earliest start dates, which is bad, but it gets even worse. The Vikings have a tendency to nab a few duchies on the east coast of Britain, so Canterbury falls too, giving +20% instead of +50%. Basically -30% based on Holy Sites alone. By the time the Viking age is done, Catholicism has 1 or 2 Holy Sites under control out of 5.


The main problem is heresy and weak MA. Almost no Pagans convert when there’s such a low MA. And the heretics revolting leads to weaker kingdoms.

Most Catholic lands don’t get conquered- France, Italy, England, and southern Germany. The Pagans dont convert or reform.

The pagans continue to be unreformed, raiding Catholic lands, for hundreds of years. By the time the Crusades come along, Wesfern Europe is too poor to fight the advanced Muslim World in any way.

 

[TheDungen]

After playing a few game sin the 967 start I would argue that mostly it's the pagans who are to powerful, especially the germanic ones. They can essentally drown the catholics in planned invasions until they go down.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

After playing a few game sin the 967 start I would argue that mostly it's the pagans who are to powerful, especially the germanic ones. They can essentally drown the catholics in planned invasions until they go down.

I've been testing some nerfs to Germanics to significantly tone down their retinues. With only a 20% boost instead of 50% and the 100 retinue limit from lv 1 fort spread out over all four levels, they still put up a very strong fight against the Catholics. It was fairly even, with both sides seeing success up until the king of Sweden reformed the religion independently of everything else that was happening. So with huge nerfs to Germanic, it's still quite strong. That just goes to show that it is overpowered in the current state.

 

[TheDungen]

I've been testing some nerfs to Germanics to significantly tone down their retinues. With only a 20% boost instead of 50% and the 100 retinue limit from lv 1 fort spread out over all four levels, they still put up a very strong fight against the Catholics. It was fairly even, with both sides seeing success up until the king of Sweden reformed the religion independently of everything else that was happening. So with huge nerfs to Germanic, it's still quite strong. That just goes to show that it is overpowered in the current state.

The nomads are a big part of it too. The khazar subjugated their way to lotharingia before their first ruler died.

 

[SLKRR]

I think a lot of this is just random. I don't usually play 769 start, but I wanted to try a Zunist run at last. For the most part, I haven't interacted with Europe at all. The Catholic MA tanked very early, but then rebounded, and they have now (mid 1100s) pushed through most of Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, and into Russia.

Orthodox took a big hit when Mongols conquered the Byzantines (early Mongol invasion around 900), but then the Mongols converted to Buddhism and are now getting systematically pushed out of Europe. Somehow, during all of this, Tibet became completely Orthodox, however.

The Abbasids were strong for a good 150 years or so and then imploded completely, riven with heretics and a successful Shia uprising.

So, other than the Zun Empire (which I control), Catholics are the only other religion at 100 MA, and that was all the AIs doing, since I've barely interacted with them, spending all my time in Persia, India, and the steppes.

Basically, there is a lot of random chance involved regarding which religions are successful between one game and the next.

 

[TheDungen]

I think a lot of this is just random. I don't usually play 769 start, but I wanted to try a Zunist run at last. For the most part, I haven't interacted with Europe at all. The Catholic MA tanked very early, but then rebounded, and they have now (mid 1100s) pushed through most of Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, and into Russia.

Orthodox took a big hit when Mongols conquered the Byzantines (early Mongol invasion around 900), but then the Mongols converted to Buddhism and are now getting systematically pushed out of Europe. Somehow, during all of this, Tibet became completely Orthodox, however.

The Abbasids were strong for a good 150 years or so and then imploded completely, riven with heretics and a successful Shia uprising.

So, other than the Zun Empire (which I control), Catholics are the only other religion at 100 MA, and that was all the AIs doing, since I've barely interacted with them, spending all my time in Persia, India, and the steppes.

Basically, there is a lot of random chance involved regarding which religions are successful between one game and the next.

Yeah it's because much of the catholic's strength comes from their holy orders but those don't spawn until the 11th century. But they should probably be a lot more evenly powered, yeah they had some problems with vikings but not nearly like in the early start dates. And the nomads in the early start dates were a lot weaker than they are in the game, in fact the khazar should arguably be tribal, and were actually being slowly but surely pushed back by the rus from Kiev. On the other hand, the holy orders didn't make such a difference in reality. The kingdom of jerusalem still fell, the reconqusta was sucessfull but pretty much every crusade against muslims after the first one failed.

Also going after persia will have weakened the muslims aiding catholicism in your game.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Catholicism would be much more stable if they moved the Holy Site in Santiago to somewhere else, probably somewhere in Aquitaine.

Between Jerusalem and Santiago, Catholicism has a -20% in the two earliest start dates, which is bad, but it gets even worse. The Vikings have a tendency to nab a few duchies on the east coast of Britain, so Canterbury falls too, giving +20% instead of +50%. Basically -30% based on Holy Sites alone. By the time the Viking age is done, Catholicism has 1 or 2 Holy Sites under control out of 5.


The main problem is heresy and weak MA. Almost no Pagans convert when there’s such a low MA. And the heretics revolting leads to weaker kingdoms.

Most Catholic lands don’t get conquered- France, Italy, England, and southern Germany. The Pagans dont convert or reform.

The pagans continue to be unreformed, raiding Catholic lands, for hundreds of years. By the time the Crusades come along, Wesfern Europe is too poor to fight the advanced Muslim World in any way.

Pagans continue to be unreformed and by the time Western Europe is too poor to fight Muslims, Eastern Europe has converted and provided a massive manpower boost on top of the ridiculous 5 holy order advantage.

 

[junassa]

So since this got bumped again I'd thought I'd share my newest game (now with 6 doctrines (so I could get SB+D) and religious cults!):

So once again Charlie formed HRE for me. That's at least 60% for me. I don't think I've taken a county from the Ummayyads yet. Some Norse took Aragon but was forced to convert to Catholicism by an HRE duke. I kind of screwed over the Abbasids without knowing: Ali is the Shia Caliphate, but after that somehow without attacking the Abbasids I imprisoned the eventual heir and matri married him off to some nobody for giggles (I really don't know why I did this; I'm actually assuming I'm the one who did this since he was matri'd to a Muslim woman). Anyway his heir was decadent so they are broken up a bit.

Still waiting for the mighty Sunni to put me in my place but they keep pressing the self destruct button

 

[Dzikun]

I'm at my 4th longer run after HF and i did not notice problems with catholics getting owned more then usual. I played a catholic count game just before HF hit and they were getting their ass handled to them by the muslims. Same happening now in my estonian tribal game. But i noticed the excommunication problem today when the Saxons converted their king automatically on day 1 was excommunicated for some reason.

 

[TheDungen]

Pagans continue to be unreformed and by the time Western Europe is too poor to fight Muslims, Eastern Europe has converted and provided a massive manpower boost on top of the ridiculous 5 holy order advantage.

But eastern europe usually flips orthodox not catholic. Heck poland usually flips orthodox these days.

I'm at my 4th longer run after HF and i did not notice problems with catholics getting owned more then usual. I played a catholic count game just before HF hit and they were getting their ass handled to them by the muslims. Same happening now in my estonian tribal game. But i noticed the excommunication problem today when the Saxons converted their king automatically on day 1 was excommunicated for some reason.

Probably because of free investiture.

 

[jamal bakr]

yes, Catholicism tends to collapse in the 8th century start, partially because its very easy for its moral authority to tank. How fast they fall apart largely depends on when saxons seize the holy site in germany, and when the vikings sack kent. Due to lack of boat tech, there is p. much no way to prevent the sack of kent.... the only thing is how long will it take for the vikings to figure that out.

That said, that is what makes playing a catholic in the 8th century so much fun. By the time you get to the mid 9th century, you can holy war pretty much everyone, as they will all be heretics or heathens. Furthermore, it makes the monk societies EXTREMELY good; as you can forcibly convert your provinces back even with junk moral authority. Try playing a welsh petty king in the 8th century start; its a lot of fun reclaiming PRYDAIN from the various germanic interlopers.

 

[TheDungen]

yes, Catholicism tends to collapse in the 8th century start, partially because its very easy for its moral authority to tank. How fast they fall apart largely depends on when saxons seize the holy site in germany, and when the vikings sack kent. Due to lack of boat tech, there is p. much no way to prevent the sack of kent.... the only thing is how long will it take for the vikings to figure that out.

That said, that is what makes playing a catholic in the 8th century so much fun. By the time you get to the mid 9th century, you can holy war pretty much everyone, as they will all be heretics or heathens. Furthermore, it makes the monk societies EXTREMELY good; as you can forcibly convert your provinces back even with junk moral authority. Try playing a welsh petty king in the 8th century start; its a lot of fun reclaiming PRYDAIN from the various germanic interlopers.

They usually collapse in the 9th century start too. Them faring badly in the 8th century start is nothing new, them getting completely overrun in the 9th century one is.

 

[Damarrocarion]

I think a lot of this is just random. I don't usually play 769 start, but I wanted to try a Zunist run at last.

There is what appears to be an easter egg Zunist courtier (Shansbani couty) at 867 start in case you want to have a go with Zunist game there too. I started with Shahi and trained my heir with him and then got Norse/Zun court physician for culture swap. Now I raid like crazy with my reformed Bloodthirsty Norse Afghans and aim for Empire of the Sun & Norse East achievements