Catholic Byzantines

[Naughtius Maximus]

Finished a game as a count of Neopolis, and wanted to try a different game, although in the same region.

The goal is the same, SPQR under coalitions and whatnot. I missed it last time only because I didn't have the guts to break treaties and suffer the prestige loss. 100% Threat with Mongols and Aztecs on the field weren't even the problem. Anyhow, this time going to start as straight up Byzantines in Charlemagne start, should be easy.

To sum this up, two questions:

I have no experience outside of Orthodox. The first emperor of 769 is zealous and Iconoclast, which is fine. Question is, are there any benefits to being Iconoclast?

Secondly, my Catholic wife just gave me the conversion event, meaning I can be a Catholic Byzantine Emperor. What are the differences between Orthodox and Catholic? Would it be advantageous to convert to Catholic?

 

[JonathanOfArc]

What are the differences between Orthodox and Catholic? Would it be advantageous to convert to Catholic?

The Pope!

Advantage, Catholics.

 

[StarSword]

• Catholics have more holy orders (up to five, versus one for Orthodox rulers) and access to crusades.
• Catholics have a harder time taxing vassal bishops as bishops will either pay all taxes to their liege or all to the pope, depending on whom they like more.
• Investiture law: Free Investiture lets you control who becomes a bishop and gets opinion bonuses both from nominated bishops and all vassals, but annoys the pope. Papal investiture generates random characters to be bishops and halves the price of papal favors (divorces, claims, loans, and sanctioned invasions).
• Sanctioned invasions are slightly easier to get because all Catholics follow the pope, whereas Orthodox patriarchs are autocephalous: that is, each major realm's court chaplain is religious head for the entire realm. I'm not entirely sure how that works (maybe it applies to independents who are de jure yours?) but it means you can only get sanctioned invasions and claims on people who also follow your court chaplain.
• You can appoint an antipope if you can handle reduced moral authority, which shields you from excommunication and allows emperors to conquer Rome for their antipope and vassalize the papacy.
• Catholic bishops cannot marry, and will have their marriage annulled if they were married at time of investiture (nullifying any non-aggression pacts). Orthodox bishops won't marry, but married Orthodox bishops will stay that way.

 

[FLESH HUNTER]

You get Rome for Free(Well...Just make an Anti-Pope have fun)

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

• Catholics have more holy orders (up to five, versus one for Orthodox rulers) and access to crusades.
• Catholics have a harder time taxing vassal bishops as bishops will either pay all taxes to their liege or all to the pope, depending on whom they like more.
• Investiture law: Free Investiture lets you control who becomes a bishop and gets opinion bonuses both from nominated bishops and all vassals, but annoys the pope. Papal investiture generates random characters to be bishops and halves the price of papal favors (divorces, claims, loans, and sanctioned invasions).
• Sanctioned invasions are slightly easier to get because all Catholics follow the pope, whereas Orthodox patriarchs are autocephalous: that is, each major realm's court chaplain is religious head for the entire realm. I'm not entirely sure how that works but it means you can only get sanctioned invasions and claims on people who also follow your court chaplain.
• You can appoint an antipope if you can handle reduced moral authority, which shields you from excommunication and allows emperors to conquer Rome for their antipope and vassalize the papacy.

I plan to conquer Rome in the very near future anyways as I am going for SPQR achievement. If I go Catholic and then oust the Pope from Rome, can I re-invite him? I would wish to keep the castle as the capital, but would the pope submit to being a bisphoric in Rome as opposed to it being the capital holding in the county?

Sort of like the Ecumenical Patriarch sits in the bishopric of Constantinople.

Also investiture law wouldn't really matter if I have the Pope vassalized, would it? Then it's basically a free +10 opinion for all my other vassals?

 

[PG908]

An unmentioned disadvantage of a catholic emperor is the loss of the ability to mend the schism, which turns remaining Catholics into a holy-warrable hersey. Good for places you don't get a reconquest CB on, like scotland.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

So it's impossible to Mend the Schism as a Catholic? That's a shame. The ability to join a Crusade though is very tempting....

On another note I don't plan to build retinues until my holdings are fully upgraded, but what is a good recommendation? Pure special units (aka cataphract?)

 

[Bernard95]

Well, you can do something quite interesting if you Mend the Schism as an Orthodox and then convert to Catholicism (or any other Orthodox heresy). What happens is that you as a Catholic are now de facto heretic of Orthodoxy allowing you to holy war all of Europe. When you also become the dominant faith again, you also pick up the Orthodox holy order in addition to all of the Catholic ones. Plus if you vassalize the Pope, you stand to be very, very overpowered to say the least.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

Iconoclasm and Orthodoxy are effectively identical, and either can Mend the Schism (Paulican and Monothelite can also Mend if they take over as the dominant branch, but Bogomilist cannot. Bogomilist has no penalty for female rulers/heirs/temple holders if that's your jam, the others are pretty much interchangable.)

Once the Schism is mended, all Catholic heresies also become Orthodox heresies, but Miaphysites and Nestorians are unaffected.


Catholics get more holy orders and more faff with the church, but it's really unnecessary. You don't need Crusades, because Restored Rome encompasses all of the states that would be going on Crusade. You don't need excommunication, because the Emperor can strip titles at will. You get a free CB on the entire classical Empire, so you don't need Sanctioned Invasion.

In the Empire, the state dominates the church. You don't need to grovel to a churchman to exert your imperium, so don't treat the puffed-up Bishop of Rome as anything more than the patriarch he is.


(Comedy option: Messalians count as Christians and thus get all the benefits of restored Rome, though they can't Mend the Schism.)

 

[FLESH HUNTER]

I plan to conquer Rome in the very near future anyways as I am going for SPQR achievement. If I go Catholic and then oust the Pope from Rome, can I re-invite him? I would wish to keep the castle as the capital, but would the pope submit to being a bisphoric in Rome as opposed to it being the capital holding in the county?

Sort of like the Ecumenical Patriarch sits in the bishopric of Constantinople.

Also investiture law wouldn't really matter if I have the Pope vassalized, would it? Then it's basically a free +10 opinion for all my other vassals?

I think the pope still dislikes you for investiture but not sure, The pope doesn't care what he holds really(He prefers the capitol due to the fact he is a king but eh), but still just make an anti-pope attack Rome supporting his claim and because you are an Emperor you will auto vassalize him

 

[Dragatus]

I plan to conquer Rome in the very near future anyways as I am going for SPQR achievement. If I go Catholic and then oust the Pope from Rome, can I re-invite him? I would wish to keep the castle as the capital, but would the pope submit to being a bisphoric in Rome as opposed to it being the capital holding in the county?

Sort of like the Ecumenical Patriarch sits in the bishopric of Constantinople.

Also investiture law wouldn't really matter if I have the Pope vassalized, would it? Then it's basically a free +10 opinion for all my other vassals?

You can vassalize the papacy and then revoke the duchy of Latium and the county of Rome. The pope won't like it one bit, but there's not much he can do to stop it.

The pope also won't like Free Investiture, but the only thing he can do about it is form factions like any other vassal. So take away his duchy and take away his counties and leave him with a single bishopric.

So it's impossible to Mend the Schism as a Catholic? That's a shame. The ability to join a Crusade though is very tempting....

On another note I don't plan to build retinues until my holdings are fully upgraded, but what is a good recommendation? Pure special units (aka cataphract?)

I'd go with standard Defense retinues. With a good commander (16+ Martial) they'll trigger Shieldwall 75% of the time, which gives them good survival rate in skirmish phase. And in melee phase Pikemen are still the unmatched champions.

Cataphracts are unimpressive. Heavy Cavalry is way overpriced and Horse Archers are OK, but don't do so well against levies (2 out of 3 tactics that levies trigger will counter Swarm).