Catalytic processing should be a policy, not a civic

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Kabian

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Catalytic Processing as a Civic

Catalytic Processing as a Civic, while being amazing in terms of RP (something sometimes lacking), its in itself, a civic that harms the empire that takes it for the following reasons:
  • food procesing becomes inefficient as the game progresses (a lategame alloy worker requires 1.66 base miners, while a catalytic worker requires 1.75 base food producers)
  • minerals have more options to be produced (both megaestructure and 2 unity edicts of 50% minerals from workers and 33% empire minerals).
  • catalytic processing doesnt affect consumer goods, which means you have to split your production between minerals and food, which leads to more inefficiency.
  • costs a civic point, which could be used in rockbreakers/mining guilds if one wants to have better alloy production, since taking this civic instead of catalytic reduces the pops required on miners by around 20%-30%
Proposed changes to catalytic:

  • Make catalytic affect artisans, allowing catalytic empires to streamline production.
  • Make catalytic a decision option you can switch to change your procesing methods.
Why a policy?

  • As a policy, it doesnt have to compete with other civics, which it cant without making it stronger
  • give a bonus that can be felt by the player over other manufacturing methods (example: mining guilds)
  • Allow for easier expansion of the system: Examples:
    • Energy processing: nuclear manufacturing: turn energy into alloys in a 4 to 1 ratio
    • Mixed processing: turn food and minerals into alloys in a 1 mineral 1.5 food to 1 alloy
    • Etc...
  • Can still be enabled disabled depending on tech/other civics.

Please coment your opinion about this change!
 
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Abdulijubjub

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while this is true for pops, a lot of game mechanics use minerals, energy and food as 1 value ratio, which makes minerals way more efficient than food
Unless you're buying food for some reason, this is not true.

Early game, you buy minerals. A technician makes 6 energy which buys 4.6 minerals. So single pop makes 4.6 minerals. A farmer makes 6 food, so a single pop makes 6 minerals, end of story. Here, minerals do not equal food.

After the very early game, when your hunger for minerals has far exceeded the market cap, 6 energy = 4 minerals = 6 food. Later, 8 energy = 6 minerals = 8 food, or 10 energy = 8 minerals = 10 food. At no point in the game are minerals equal to food, minerals always a bit more valuable (unless you did something drastic, like rushing all the mineral processing buffs and completely ignoring food). The only exception would be a MI with Rockbreakers, who would make 5/6/7/9 (with increasing tech) food and minerals from every job when techs are equal.

Catalytic's ratio of 3 food to 1 alloy loses each of these 4 exchanges except the early-mid one (6-4-6), and that one it only breaks even on. Only with origins or civics that enable efficient food production or hardcore starbase spam (for pop-free food from hydroponics bays) is Catalytic anything other than a novelty that cripples your empire by taking up a slot.

I think it would be ok if it were 8 food -> 3 alloys in the early game (not quite 2.66:1 instead of 3:1), with an additional +2 food, +1 alloy from buildings to reflect the increased efficiency of miners relative to farmers. Honestly, that may be all it needs.

To compare the base worker output of miners/farmers per specialist, with various setups:

metallurgistmetallurgist with Mining Guildscatalytic techcatalytic tech with revised ratio
Base tech and internal market1.3041.21.51.333
Base tech1.51.21.51.333
Full buildings1.661.421.8751.5
Orbital ring1.51.331.81.4

It could even start at 9 still (9, 11, 13, 15 with increasing buildings/orbital buildings) instead of 8 and still be decent. It would avoid the issue it currently has, be equal at the start (to avoid feeding even more early game war rush nonsense), and have a slight advantage over metallurgists to make it worth taking, but still not be anywhere near as powerful as Mining Guilds at doing exactly the same thing.

Keep in mind that it will still be mostly for flavor, interaction other civics, or early game Hydroponics Bay spam (which is only particularly powerful for MI, as everyone else is going to making at least some of their food from jobs). Mining Guilds would still be better at improving this ratio of workers to specialists, unless there's a very drastic change, so there's a huge amount of wiggle room to make the civic more powerful without being broken.
 
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It would be awesome if this empire, could have Catalytic processing from the start and without having to sacrifice their third civic slot to such an ability.

20221127222119_1.jpg


So they could actually just grab all the livestock they want from the start. :cool:
 
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How about making it a level 1 tech option which then grants it as a policy?

Anglers and Agrarian Idyl would start with Catalytic Processing tech from the get go and the policy activated.

Other empires have a chance of the tech showing up if they over PRODUCE over 100 food per month.
With each additional 100 food excess production increasing the chance.
 
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Kabian

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How about making it a level 1 tech option which then grants it as a policy?

Anglers and Agrarian Idyl would start with Catalytic Processing tech from the get go and the policy activated.

Other empires have a chance of the tech showing up if they over PRODUCE over 100 food per month.
With each additional 100 food excess production increasing the chance.
This would also work, but maybe make it tier 2 or 3, instead of tier done (since it seems catalytic is really hard to do)
 
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Metallichydra

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Maybe give it a small buff and make it a permanent civic? (So you can't add or remove it after game start)
Maybe that way we could have more empires that feels more different.
 
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Maybe give it a small buff and make it a permanent civic? (So you can't add or remove it after game start)
Maybe that way we could have more empires that feels more different.

This thread is about NOT having it as a civic, as it really limits your options with only 3 max civics available.
By taking it off of the civic slot, allows for a much wider range of empires to make use of it.
 
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Since it wasn't voiced already, I will state the unpopular opinion.
We need catalytic processing be a tech-locked planetary decision. Decision should scale in cost and time with the amount of industrial districts a colony has, to represent that colony refits its industrial base from one type to another. Policy might be then implemented to decide what industrial districts give by default: metallurgists or catalytic technicians. This way, if you want, you can have "waste not want not" stance, eating all food/mineral surplus that from that xenos being purged as well as forging/processing alloys normally.
 
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I don't see why Anglers keeps being mentioned here.

Anglers doesn't make your empire better at producing food. It gives you some bonus TV, disconnects your CG production from your Alloys production, and converts part of the upkeep of your CG production to use Food instead of Minerals. It's a relatively efficient way to support a species with high living standards. That said, it doesn't make your empire overall better at producing food. On Ocean worlds where Anglers can uncap your food districts you already have an above-average number of food districts available by default and the amount of food you produce per district is reduced. You're trading the random result for a consistently mediocre result and you have to invest more minerals up-front to acquire that result because you're building more districts, which means you're still pretty reliant on minerals.

Agrarian Idyll is also just a bad civic. Agrarian Idyll + Catalytic Processing should maybe just be turned into an Origin similar to Subterranean. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be unlocked civics considering how fundamentally different the economies are and they're pretty much required to make each other usable. If those two are an origin then you can put together an empire with substantially more flexibility in civics and economies without it being crazy strong, and they can get their consistency by having unique techs that increase farming districts on certain world types and perhaps even having the extra farmer from Hydroponics Farms like Voidborne have.
 

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@XCodes
Having uncapped food districts, means you really CAN go on a food based economy.
And as an Anglers empire, I can get all the minerals I need from space resources and occasionally maybe buying some from the market for quick building sessions.
Paid for by the excess amount of consumer goods.
Anglers I also double up with more trade value build which is converted into my unity, so I really only need build science and alloys beyond that.
 

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@XCodes
Having uncapped food districts, means you really CAN go on a food based economy.
And as an Anglers empire, I can get all the minerals I need from space resources and occasionally maybe buying some from the market for quick building sessions.
Paid for by the excess amount of consumer goods.
Anglers I also double up with more trade value build which is converted into my unity, so I really only need build science and alloys beyond that.
Oh sure, come 2250 you can convert all your mining districts into Generator/Agri districts and run off of space rocks, but that takes a while to get to and your whole pre-2230 Alloys snowball is going to be very slow to start, which is extra punishing since you're going to be needing to terraform and colonize more planets into oceans and building more outposts to get those planets to make up for your poor use of Ecumenopoli (which you probably won't ever build since they cost 20k minerals to begin with).

It's way better to take Anglers as a stand-alone civic supporting a normal trade empire. Tacking Catalytic Processing onto it drags it down.
 

GhostDanny

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I don't even need to run generator districts for the most part, the added trade value pays for all my energy needs!
My first tradition tree is Mercantile and then supremacy, I don't even touch prosperity and jump to my ascension as third tradition.
I also run Barbaric Despoilers, so I raid my neighbours for extra resources and debris fields for tech.
 

Abdulijubjub

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I don't see why Anglers keeps being mentioned here.
Anglers doesn't make your empire better at producing food. It gives you some bonus TV, disconnects your CG production from your Alloys production, and converts part of the upkeep of your CG production to use Food instead of Minerals. It's a relatively efficient way to support a species with high living standards. That said, it doesn't make your empire overall better at producing food. On Ocean worlds where Anglers can uncap your food districts you already have an above-average number of food districts available by default and the amount of food you produce per district is reduced. You're trading the random result for a consistently mediocre result and you have to invest more minerals up-front to acquire that result because you're building more districts, which means you're still pretty reliant on minerals.

Agrarian Idyll is also just a bad civic. Agrarian Idyll + Catalytic Processing should maybe just be turned into an Origin similar to Subterranean. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be unlocked civics considering how fundamentally different the economies are and they're pretty much required to make each other usable. If those two are an origin then you can put together an empire with substantially more flexibility in civics and economies without it being crazy strong, and they can get their consistency by having unique techs that increase farming districts on certain world types and perhaps even having the extra farmer from Hydroponics Farms like Voidborne have.
Without Anglers, you pay 300 minerals for 2 jobs that make +12 food, for 1 energy upkeep. With Anglers, you pay 500 minerals for 2 jobs that makes +16 food and 4 TV, for 2 energy upkeep. +3 energy (probably more) and +4 food, from the same jobs, exchange for 200 minerals, once. You're paying 66% more minerals for (roughly) 66% more output. It also uncaps your farming districts (which you'll need because you're building twice as many, for reduced price). I don't really understand what you mean by "Anglers doesn't make your empire better at producing food". The Farmer->Angler conversion is just the Artisan->Artificer (Masterful Crafters) conversion, doubled (+2 of the given resource and +2 trade, instead of +1/+1).

You can just close the Pearl Diver jobs. The game even makes it easy by giving Pearl Divers worker level job preference, so workers don't promote into specialists unless you tell them to (or they're otherwise unemployed).

Agrarian Idyll is bad unless you have some other reason to spam farmers. Agrarian Idyll and Anglers, together, are fantastic. You never hire entertainers or technicians, just more Anglers and Pearl Divers, everywhere, and it's extremely efficient. You don't even need to be a trade build, and it's still good.

I disagree that things that fundamentally change the economy should necessarily be origins. You're not locked into an origin for trade. You're not locked into an origin for slavery. And saying that they should be is just such a strange idea to me. Why would having uniquely interesting gameplay require it being locked out of the other unique mechanics that origins bring?
 
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Without Anglers, you pay 300 minerals for 2 jobs that make +12 food, for 1 energy upkeep. With Anglers, you pay 500 minerals for 2 jobs that makes +16 food and 4 TV, for 2 energy upkeep. +3 energy (probably more) and +4 food, from the same jobs, exchange for 200 minerals, once. You're paying 66% more minerals for (roughly) 66% more output. It also uncaps your farming districts (which you'll need because you're building twice as many, for reduced price). I don't really understand what you mean by "Anglers doesn't make your empire better at producing food". The Farmer->Angler conversion is just the Artisan->Artificer (Masterful Crafters) conversion, doubled (+2 of the given resource and +2 trade, instead of +1/+1).
Yes, 66% more for 66% more, ergo Anglers doesn't make you better at producing food than an Empire without Anglers outside of the uncapping of districts, which isn't strictly a bonus on food-rich Ocean worlds, it just provides consistency against bad rolls. As a result, combining it with Catalytic Processing is questionable.

As to the comparison with Master Craftsmen, it isn't doubled. Each Angler and each Artisan produces +2 TV, and the Artisan produces +1 CG without added upkeep, which is worth the same in the game logic as +2 Food resource efficiency-wise. It's also logically equivalent as 1 Miner feeds the Artisan while the two Farmers just work their jobs. If you compare the bonuses given to each job in this comparison than they're actually the same, just applied in different ways.

Now we come to the contrasting points as to why Master Craftsmen is a good civic and Anglers is a bad civic: Anglers functions based on Agriculture districts -- a district type you straight up don't want to build as all it does is feed your pops with surplus not actually doing anything in the standard economy. Master Craftsmen works off Industrial Districts, which are fantastic and versatile in providing as few as 0 and as many as 2 Artisans per district, meaning you can adjust your output as needed using world designations. Furthermore, the uses for CG's are varied and powerful and can be used to increase Research and Unity output as well as improving the living standards of your pops to increase their political power, happiness, and trade value -- assuming you even need them and don't convert your production to alloys.

Finally, Anglers requires you to be Aquatic, a 2-point trait that has some interesting bonuses on Ocean worlds but cripples your species' viability on any other planet -- including Ecumenopoli. Technically Anglers earns it's cost, so you could argue that it's a neutral feature, but realistically it's a downside to using the civic. On the other hand, Master Craftsmen gives you an objectively good bonus: extra building slots with Industrial Districts.

Anglers plays a role in the game and can do some interesting things with respect to supporting a strong civilian economy, especially with a limited number of star systems, but it still doesn't make sense to build more than you need. Agrarian Idyll gives bonuses to all rural districts and gives particular bonuses to Agriculture districts that can potentially allow them to be valuable to build. Further, Agrarian Idyll doesn't really make sense as a Civic. If your people ascended to the stars as an agrarian culture then 1) HOW and 2) Why would you ever give that up?
 
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Yes, 66% more for 66% more, ergo Anglers doesn't make you better at producing food than an Empire without Anglers outside of the uncapping of districts, which isn't strictly a bonus on food-rich Ocean worlds, it just provides consistency against bad rolls. As a result, combining it with Catalytic Processing is questionable.
66% more upfront minerals for 66% more output per pop. So you invest, proportionally, the same minerals per food/trade, but you get 66% improved pop efficiency. I don't understand how you're looking at that and seeing "not better at making food".

Admittedly, this tradeoff only works so cleanly if you count the TV as equal in value to food. But if you ignore it, you're paying 66% more minerals for 33% improved pop efficiency. Imagine if you could pay 333 extra minerals per forge district to give metallurgists +1 alloy (and -2 minerals) each.

3 anglers make the same output as 4 farmers and 1 technician (ish) for the same minerals in districts (2.5x300 vs. 3x250). So long as you can find a use for food, you're making the output of 5 pops with 3, at no additional cost other than half a district of sprawl.

I'm not making a value judgement about Anglers in general, at this point. I don't think it's worth taking unless you have another synergistic civic, or a trade build (i.e. you have to lean into it). I'm just refuting this claim that it doesn't make you better at producing food. That's... the one thing it indisputably does, and does well.

For Masterful Crafters:
1. Sorry, I remembered it as +1 trade, I should have looked it up.
2. It doesn't change the point, only the details of the argument I used to make it. Both civics give improved per pop efficiency for making their respective resources, plus a bit of trade.
3. Masterful Crafters' building slots are a big part of what makes the civic as a whole so powerful. But that's not why it makes you better at making CG.

As for the CG vs. food comparison:
The Anglers civic partially solves the problem of food's limited usefulness by giving you free Pearl Diver jobs. They save 2 minerals (instead of the 1.2 of an artisan on a designated world), save 1 energy per job on upkeep, give you 2 extra TV, and cost 3 food. They increase demand for food while decreasing demand for energy and mineral workers, letting you meet the same CG needs that MC does, with almost the same pop efficiency as MC, and better pop efficiency than a normal empire.

Pearl Divers also save you half a district in sprawl and 250 minerals in construction costs, each. You're getting them for free in food districts which have already paid for themselves. That roughly cancels out MC's building slots bonus (which saves you 83 minerals and 1/6 of a building slot per job, assuming you have twice as many metallurgists as you do Artificers). At least, it cancels it out to the extent that you use Pearl Divers instead of Artisans.

They get a bit wonky once the efficiency boosting buildings come into play (as they only boost half as many pops each), but that's not as big a deal as it sounds.

Anglers makes you way better at making food, and it gives you a slightly more efficient job for CG that lets you lean even further into basing your economy on food production, if you so choose. It's not just averaging out food district rolls...
 
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66% more upfront minerals for 66% more output per pop. So you invest, proportionally, the same minerals per food/trade, but you get 66% improved pop efficiency. I don't understand how you're looking at that and seeing "not better at
Because you aren't. You do not need a large number of pops to max out a typical planet's food production and you only need a handful of food producing planets in an empire. Only in the very early game does this pop efficency of yours matter, and that pop efficency boost is not even 66%, it's 33%. Once Food-boosting buildings are built on the planet it even drops further to 20%, and the fact that you only get 1 job per district and hydroponics building starts to seriously lower your production ceiling.

So then what do you do with all those Pearl Diver jobs you're wasting? You are optimizing too narrow of a system and getting a result that isn't actually correct in the wider context.
 

Abdulijubjub

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Because you aren't. You do not need a large number of pops to max out a typical planet's food production and you only need a handful of food producing planets in an empire.
Sure, you don't need many. Instead of a single planet with, say, 12 food districts (24 farmers), you instead take that same planet and build 18 food districts, and employ 18 anglers instead. And on another planet, since you're making 36 trade value, you free up 6 technicians and 3 generator districts. You built 3 extra districts, paid 0 extra minerals, and employed 12 fewer pops (30 -> 18).

Remember, this discussion started with "Anglers doesn't make your empire better at producing food" and "Anglers doesn't make you better at producing food than an Empire without Anglers outside of the uncapping of districts".

Anglers demonstrably makes you better at producing food. If, for something like Catalytic Processing, you need to scale up food production, Anglers makes it so much easier. Your best food worlds produce roughly the same amount, with much fewer pops. And every other world is just as good as your best food worlds. since deposits no longer matter.

Only in the very early game does this pop efficency of yours matter, and that pop efficency boost is not even 66%, it's 33%.
It's 66%, in the early game, unless you for some reason don't feel like collecting trade, or you value energy so lowly that you literally don't care about it at all. Again: 3 anglers do the work of 4 farmers and 1 technician, in 3 districts instead of 2.5, in the early game.

Even if you're trying to argue just for food, rephrase the question: if a regular empire is employing 8 farmers to make 48 food, and also has at least 3 technicians, how much food can an Anglers empire make while still keeping everything else equal? 1.66x as much more, by employing 10 anglers (80 food and 20 trade value). The 20 trade value replaces the 2 reassigned technicians and pays for the increased upkeep, so energy output stays the same. You build 6 more agriculture districts, but you build 1 fewer energy districts and you have 8 extra trade value which covers the upkeep.

If you want more food: Anglers makes 66% more by letting you reassign technicians (and still end up with more total energy). If you want to make the same food, Anglers lets you make the same output with 40% fewer pops (1.66x better pop efficiency).

Until you bring in boosting buildings, it's 66% more efficient, no matter how you slice it.
Once Food-boosting buildings are built on the planet it even drops further to 20%, and the fact that you only get 1 job per district and hydroponics building starts to seriously lower your production ceiling.
Once you have boosting buildings, it drops to roughly 50%. 2 food and 2 energy extra, compared to 8 total for both technicians and farmers. Once you have orbital ring buildings, it's 40%.****

****Once you start talking about advanced tech or traditions, the tradeoff of energy vs. trade can swing wildly one way or the other. If you pursue the energy techs and don't invest further into trade, trade will severely fall off, with technicians making ~24 to 28 each, while the trade is maybe worth 3 (from stability bonuses and maybe a stock exchange), so it's worth only 1/8 of a technician instead of the 1/4 or 1/5 that it would be without % tech boosts. That leaves you at only 32% improved efficiency for Anglers, instead of 40%. If you invest into trade, though, you can potentially get up to 1.5x from pop traits, +150% trade modifiers, and another ~1.8x multiplier from using the trade value, so that 2 trade can be worth ~8.1, around 1/3 of a technician, even one with late game tech, leaving you with 50% improved efficiency even after accounting for the boosting buildings.

More importantly, though, in late game, the efficiency improvement matters less since you only need ~1/24 pops to be a farmer, instead of ~1/6. But that's true of most civics that give flat bonuses: late game techs make almost everything else irrelevant.
So then what do you do with all those Pearl Diver jobs you're wasting?
If you just close them... nothing. Nothing happens to them, and it doesn't matter. You can pretend the civic does nothing except give Angler jobs, and it works fine. You take your 66% improved early efficiency and 32-50% improvd late game efficiency for farming/energy, and go home. It works just fine. Again, this whole discussion was about whether or not Anglers were better at making food... which they so obvious are that I'm still very confused as to why I have to keep typing this out.

But a pearl diver is more efficient than a regular Artisan (roughly halfway between a Artisan and an Artificer), so you should use them.

In the early game:
  • Artificers use 4.8 minerals (on a factory world) and make 7 CG plus 2 trade.
    • That's 1.2 miners in upkeep (assuming mining designation roughly cancels habitability to keep things around 0% net modifiers).
    • The district needs 1 energy upkeep per pop, and 0.5 per miner, so that's ~1.6 energy (in aggregate), needing another ~.29 technicians in upkeep.
    • 2.49 pops make 7 CG and 2 trade.
    • If you replace technicians with the trade it's 2.16 pops make 7 CG (3.2 CG per pop).
  • Pearl Divers (on a non-factory world) use 4 minerals and 3 food to make 6 CG and 2 trade.
    • 1 miner in upkeep.
    • .375 anglers in upkeep (though that angler also makes an incidental .75 trade).
    • 1.5 energy in district upkeep, and the Pearl Diver comes district-upkeep-free since we're charging it all to the anglers (in both this comparison, and the angler-farmer comparison up above). That's .27 technicians.
    • 2.65 pops make 6 CG and 2.75 trade.
    • With technician replacement, it's 2.19 pops make 6 CG (2.7 CG per pop).
  • Artisans (on a factory world) use 4.8 minerals to make 6 CG.
    • 1.2 miners.
    • 1.6 energy, .29 technicians.
    • 2.49 pops make 6 CG, or 2.4 CG per pop.
Like MC, Pearl Divers save you minerals and sprawl on districts, as well. Every two Pearl Divers you employ instead of leaving closed saves you one district of sprawl, mineral cost, and upkeep, since you don't have to build an industrial zone. It's roughly the same as the way that the free building slots from MC saves you on district of sprawl/minerals/upkeep (by saving you city districts). If you have 2 metallurgists for every Artificer, the ratio is even the same. If you're tech rushing (so that actually have more CG specialists than that 2:1 ratio), then Anglers actually saves you more districts.

Too lazy to do the late game comparison. This was tedious enough as it is, and late game math has multiple scenarios for trade vs. energy upkeep. Suffice to say that the difference between all of them shrinks (as miners/anglers/technicians get more efficient), and Pearl divers do drop off until they're roughly the same as Artisans, unless you go all in on a trade build. They do need to spend twice as much on boosting buildings, but since a late game boosting building should cover around 50 artisans or 25 pearl divers, that's a difference of .08 Rare Crystals per job. Roughly .25 fewer CG per pop (out of 12), from extra crystal/energy upkeep for the building. Though the extra buildings do eat into some of your district savings.

And for late game, the Artisans don't go away. You can still use them, and leave Anglers as just anglers. You're just giving up the free districts if you do so.

You are optimizing too narrow of a system and getting a result that isn't actually correct in the wider context.
I'm not really sure what this is supposed to mean. You're still trying to argue that a civic that gives +2 food per job somehow doesn't make you better at making food. I'm still baffled by this.

Are you trying to say that all your extra food gets eaten up by the pearl divers, so, in aggregate you aren't making more? If so: why not actually say that? And you can just... choose not to use Pearl Divers. Pearl Divers give you the option to use food for CG. But they're purely optional.
 

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Ok, I've noticed a few things and I'm going to point them out, but I literally C. B. A. to read that giant wall of *wrong*.

1) 3 Anglers is not 4 Farmers + 1 Technician. The Technician benefits from labor bonuses which are far more plentiful than Trade bonuses in the early game, and therefore yields significantly more engergy -- to say nothing of a mid-game empire with all the Technician-boosting techs and buildings on top of Capacity Subsidies. Furthermore, districts have energy upkeep, which means having more districts = spending more energy, and planets have limits on how many districts they can build (and in this case, no, the limit isn't the planet size: the limit is about 4 lower than that because you want to build some City districts to unlock your building slots). 4 Farmers + 1 Technician is *decidedly better* than 3 Anglers.

2) If you are playing a trade empire -- and if you're taking the Anglers civic then you're playing a trade empire -- then you are *NEVER* getting 100% Trade to Energy. You're either getting CG's (if you need them), Unity (if you don't), or both (if you manage to actually get a Federation going). Taking 100% Trade as Energy is wrong pretty much 99% of the time, and the last 1% of the time includes both the time before you've gotten 643 Unity to buy the tradition that gives you Unity from Trade and the time where you've screwed up your economy somewhere else.

3) Maximizing food production per pop is fundamentally wrong. By 2250, the limiting factor on your potential food production isn't pops, it's planets. In many cases you could potentially argue that a modest early-game bonus can snowball you into a strong mid-game position in a standard economy, except in this case you can't do anything with excess food and the excess up-front mineral cost is detracting from your construction of Industrial districts.
 
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Fact is, as an Anglers + Barbaric Despoiler, I basically don't need any energy or mineral districts.
Especially after getting the third civic unlocked for catalytic processing.
Also running Utopian Abundance from the start of the game without having to run many additional artisans, just a few on my capital.
 
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