Catalonia and Euskadi

[Mrdie]

Will they/should they play any role in the Spanish Civil War?

As a note, the civil war due to the new modding options HOI3 can bring has the potential to be very interesting. If unique rebellions are in (à la EU3:IN) then we could see anarchists, generic socialists, Marxists-Leninists, Trotskyists and normal Republicans fighting for influence among other things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Basque_people#The_early_twentieth_century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia#Republic_and_civil_war

 

[Alexander Seil]

By the way, not that it is related to HoI3...aren't there events for Basque secession specifically for the Hearts of Iron 2 Spanish Civil War scenario? And I do mean the vanilla one. Those events aren't in the regular grand campaign, of course.

 

[Hayden]

I would enjoy the possibility of these regions playing a role in the civil war, though I'm not sure in what context. At the very least, they should be revolters/able to be liberated.

 

[Kipperian]

Euskadi or Catalonia haven't been countries in the whole history of mankind. I doubt they can play a role in an historic game. Anyway comment more about the role you think they should play...

 

[The Great Duck]

I am currently reading a book on SCW by Hugh Thomas,and as it was in the HoI2 SCW scenario,I think that Euskadi should become a semi-independent ally of the republic.

 

[Hayden]

Euskadi or Catalonia haven't been countries in the whole history of mankind.

There was a time when Catalonia existed as a principality, so there is at least a precedent (however ancient) for it's independence. That said, I think Euskadi is still out of luck.

 

[DarkReborn]

There was a time when Catalonia existed as a principality, so there is at least a precedent (however ancient) for it's independence. That said, I think Euskadi is still out of luck.

Actually, during the Middle Ages, during the Crown of Aragón, Catalonia could be considered as semi independant, as both the Kingdom of Aragon and the County of Barcelona (Catalonia) were bonded in king, but not bonded in the administrative sense of the word, as they had separate courts and laws.

 

[unmerged(56754)]

Euskadi or Catalonia haven't been countries in the whole history of mankind. I doubt they can play a role in an historic game. Anyway comment more about the role you think they should play...

Euskadi was during the Spanish Civil war.

And I believe Catalonia was around during the 1830sish.

Besides, in Armageddon I believe (I might be using a MOD) Euskadi does appear via events.

 

[L'Afrique]

Actually, during the Middle Ages, during the Crown of Aragón, Catalonia could be considered as semi independant, as both the Kingdom of Aragon and the County of Barcelona (Catalonia) were bonded in king, but not bonded in the administrative sense of the word, as they had separate courts and laws.

Indeed, while they might not have been called Catalonia or Euskadi, to claim that the Basques or Catalans were not independent before the union of Spain is wrong.

 

[Hiram_Maxim]

Don't forget Galicia, Andalucia and Leon.

 

[Kipperian]

First new I have Euskai was a free country during the SCW. I'm amazed.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

There was a time when Catalonia existed as a principality, so there is at least a precedent (however ancient) for it's independence. That said, I think Euskadi is still out of luck.

No, it was a county...

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

Indeed, while they might not have been called Catalonia or Euskadi, to claim that the Basques or Catalans were not independent before the union of Spain is wrong.

Sorry, but that happened in an alternate universe...

 

[out]

Sorry, but that happened in an alternate universe...

Let's not have any Castillian chauvinism here just yet.

That said, I think it's problematic to have these historic "details" in the game. There are simply too many groups with independence aspiration during this era. The roles they played and the impact they had varied greatly, but it would be a huge undertaking to represent them all properly, and not to mention the fact that many, many people will be pissed off no matter how they are represented.

 

[Kipperian]

Castillian chauvinism? :rofl: This thread is funny... I feel somebody is going to say that Operation Sealion was a success or a clone of Hitler is still alive in the Antartica.

 

[Kipperian]

Indeed, while they might not have been called Catalonia or Euskadi, to claim that the Basques or Catalans were not independent before the union of Spain is wrong.

The short history:

What is roughly today the "Basque country" was annexed by Castille in 1400.
Navarra was annexed in 1512, retaining a self goverment till today.
The county of Barcelona was part of the Aragon Crown. The Kingdoms of this Crown keep their special laws (fueros) too but they chose to ally with Austria and England against Philip V in the Spanish succession war. (1700-1714) Then they were "punished" for their betrayal: they lost their fueros, a few towns like Xàtiva were burned, well... the kind of things that happen to the losers of a war...

 

[GeneralHannibal]

The short history:

What is roughly today the "Basque country" was annexed by Castille in 1400.
Navarra was annexed in 1512, retaining a self goverment till today.
The county of Barcelona was part of the Aragon Crown. The Kingdoms of this Crown keep their special laws (fueros) too but they chose to ally with Austria and England against Philip V in the Spanish succession war. (1700-1714) Then they were "punished" for their betrayal: they lost their fueros, a few towns like Xàtiva were burned, well... the kind of things that happen to the losers of a war...

They were independent during the SCW, and thats what matters. Plus, they were plausible. After all, was there a Slovenia, Slovakia or Latvia before WWI? What about an independent Ukraine? I don't think so. Yet we still include them because they were quite plausible as nations, especially as puppets of some sort. After all, they are revolters, they're supposed to be potential nations (like Ukraine, Iceland Belarus or Slovenia).

 

[potski]

They were independent during the SCW, and thats what matters. Plus, they were plausible. After all, was there a Slovenia, Slovakia or Latvia before WWI? What about an independent Ukraine? I don't think so. Yet we still include them because they were quite plausible as nations, especially as puppets of some sort. After all, they are revolters, they're supposed to be potential nations (like Ukraine, Iceland Belarus or Slovenia).

They weren't independent countries in SCW. The "Republicans" were just that, the legally elected government of the whole of the Republic of Spain. Of course, there were tensions, with pro-independence movements fighting on the Republican side in these regions. I think you could describe the Basque and Catalan regions as quasi-autonomous regions of Republican Spain. But yes, you could describe them as "revolters" - at times they were as willing to revolt against the Republican goverment as the Nationalists, and it was one of the major causes of their downfall.

There was an independent Ukraine only a very few years (in historical terms) before WW2, during the Russian Civil War. Ukraine has it's own language and culture from hundreds of years earlier, when it formed a major country in eastern Europe. It existed as an independent country "Kievan Rus" for 500 years until it was carved up by Russia, Austria-Hungary and Poland, following the devastation caused by the Mongol invasion of the 13th century. It's existence today as a large independent and vibrant democratic nation, with a strong cultural identity, proves that it could have become fully independent at any time during the last hundred years.

You do know that Wikipedia can allow you check on historical facts in a matter of seconds don't you?

 

[Kipperian]

They were independent during the SCW, and thats what matters. Plus, they were plausible. After all, was there a Slovenia, Slovakia or Latvia before WWI? What about an independent Ukraine? I don't think so. Yet we still include them because they were quite plausible as nations, especially as puppets of some sort. After all, they are revolters, they're supposed to be potential nations (like Ukraine, Iceland Belarus or Slovenia).

They weren't independent.

 

[Kretoxian]

Well, let me point one thing it's true that we (the basques) weren't independent during the SCW but due to the fact that we were surrounded by the Spanish Nationalists we managed to get some kind of "semi independent" status allowing us to have our own embassies (for example in Paris and New York), our army (Eusko Gudaroztea) navy and air force (sorry there are no wikipedia links in English for these ones) and even during the WW2 the Basque government in exile (hope that it'll be included in the game BTW) proposed to the allies a plan to create a Basque Republic just in case Franco would join the Axis and he would be defeated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Republic .

Sorry for not separating the paragraphs but it was a long time ago that i couldn't write in this forum.

PD: I can't mod, i can only write because i am not in my house and even i am not in my country.