Can you fake casus bell? I don`t think i need to say anything more. (unless you don`t know what casus belli is, it is cause for war, false or real)
Casus Belli
- Thread starter TheRomanRuler
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... would love to see, if it does ... but don't think so :unsure:
The period is too short for using CB and peace time... The only CB we'll have I think will be "CRUSH'EM ALL !"
useless since all you can get a penalty for is unity/dissent. besides, the only CB you need is "boo hoo the poles shot at us"
Seems appropriate given the discussion:
[video=youtube;v_SMob9MNF4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_SMob9MNF4[/video]
Mess with the German Reich, casus belli?
[video=youtube;v_SMob9MNF4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_SMob9MNF4[/video]
Mess with the German Reich, casus belli?
The devs have said diplomacy will be deeper than in HOI3, and that HOI4 will be about countries, not factions (Allies, Axis, etc.), so one can hope.
When Germany invaded Poland they faked a bunch of attacks on their outposts to justify the invasion. The axis should be able to declare war pretty much whenever they want, you can assume the propaganda machine will come up with some excuse. I suppose you could have a system where there are multiple reasons for war, and each one has a different associated penalty, perhaps a different end condition as well. Might be a good addition to the franchise if it's not too complicated. Casus Belli was one of the more confusing things to get your head around in CK2.
I don't understand the whole "period is too short" argument. Not here, and not when its applied to wargoals. Every war in this period had a casus belli, no matter how flimsy. Germany even faked one against Poland.
It doesn't seem as hard to fake a casus belli in this period as it is in EU4 (and its pretty easy there) especially if your a dictatorship like Germany or the USSR was.
The last thing I want is for the system to end up playing like HOI3.
I admit I didn't read the post as well as I maybe should have. My bad
All very true. Even in Vicky 2, which was basically a "might makes right" game, you had to at least take the time to fabricate a CB.
The WWII period wasn't just WWII. It was a number of conflicts big and small, and when you throw human players into the mix, they're going to want to do crazy things, too. But let's say I'm playing Norway. I shouldn't be able to invade Sweden without a very, very good reason. It's just ridiculous how in HOI3, not only can you declare war on anyone, but most of the time, the rest of the world simply doesn't care. It's just a very gamey "threat vs neutrality" system.
Says who? There's countless ways DOWs with poor rationales could penaltize you. I can come up with several without an effort:
- Troop morale, in turn influencing things like organization and fighting capability.
- Manpower regain rate -- how eager will people be to sign up for a war without good justification?
- Party popularity, which would also affect a lot of things.
- Diplomatic relations with other players, which, needless to say, also has a lot of implications.
- Revolt risk and espionage.
Consider the Stability score in EU and how many factors it modifies. Why should CBs be tied only to two things in HOI4?
Okay, this time I feel I have grounds to ask this: is Germany going to be the only country in HOI4? Do you think the Norwegian people would put up with a war declaration on Sweden in 1938? Not to mention the rest of the Norwegian government, or the Norwegian armed forces?
I want to emphasize here that we aren't even necessarily talking about infamy (Eu, Vic) or legitimacy of claims (CK). An important aspect of going to war was the time it took to generate the right politic climate for the war. Even Germany took a little bit of time to "justify" a war against Poland. Italy issued ultimatums to Greece and Albania. Hitler threatened a war against the Czechs. The Soviets issued an ultimatum against Finland and Romania, only one of which led to an actual war.
None of these were surprise attacks in the sense that I just DOW on day 1, and roll the panzers one hour afterwards, with no warning to anyone else at all. Even in the Pacific, tensions were running high before Japan attacked.
I'm not sure I think every country should face massive penalties or have complicated diplomatic stuff required to DOW, but if even Germany took the time to execute Operation Himmler (which contained 21 separate false flag operations to generate a reason for Germany to go to war) over the course of a few days to justify a war which everyone and their brother saw coming, then it's not unreasonable to consider whether every country in the game might be required to justify all DOWs.
Of course, I'd like an ultimatum mechanic, too, but it's probably asking too much in the base game.
I imagine the National Goals system will probably involve ultimatums. I would also like to see a crisis/political incident mechanic but I'm guessing those will be run by the National Goals as well.
There could be a tension level for each country that changes over the course of the game, that could in turn influence how much negative results the DOW generates or how vigorously the AI prosecutes the war or continues it at all. Personally I don't support huge dissent hits, revolts, or combat negatives from a DOW that hasn't been properly "set up". Dissent hits and revolts should be after the war goes wrong, people get killed, and more people start hating it; and the player should be able to "justify" the DOW to the public after the fact to help mitigate these negatives if they care to.
The "casus belli" is needed to get your own politicians and military to go along with it. If you don't have a valid reason or claim, and not even a feeble excuse, then many of them are going to balk at starting a war with no provocation. That can easily lead to political unrest, overthrow, or assassination (consider how many times the German army initially tried to depose and later to kill Hitler). Cores in the earlier expansions of HOI3 went a long way toward allowing an attack for what was perceived as a "valid" reason, but still should require an "excuse" for the actual declaration, such as protecting one's ethnic minority in another country during a time of crisis or unrest, or a "very reasonable" demand being rejected. Heightening tensions, making economic or political demands, and doing maneuvers along the border as a way to increase the odds of an "accident" (as the US tried to do in a way with convoys and escorts in the Atlantic) would be one way to create such a situation; faking it and then demanding concessions, as GER did with POL, would be another.
Alright, can someone please answer me this one then. How is Casus Belli actually pronounced in English? It's latin correct? So I just want to make sure that my saying - Cas - us and Belly are the correct way. It only really matters when others hear you say it, and I do have an active YouTube channel.
Not 100% positive, since my Latin is somewhere between minimal and even less, but I believe that's "cas-us bell-eye", if the pronunciation of the "i" is the same as in many old Roman words.
