Casualties

[Wydon]

I think it would be a good idea at the end of the game to keep track of how many casualties occurred during your game. I always loved statistics and it would be nice to compare the casualties in your game to what historically happened. I love the fact that hearts of iron 2 keeps track of sunken ships, why not land units? Just a thought...

 

[krieger11b]

You mean like an overall manpower loss, or units lost? Because one unit while not destroyed, can incure an unlimited amount of manpower loss, or be lost in it's first battle altogether.

 

[Lazy_Boy]

Well first of all I hope they switch to real numbers of men like the TRP mod. It's superficial but adds flavor. Then keep track of casualties from there.

 

[krieger11b]

Well first of all I hope they switch to real numbers of men like the TRP mod. It's superficial but adds flavor. Then keep track of casualties from there.

It would be interesting to see what you losses in troops were compared to real life, see if as the USSR you lose 6 Million, 2 million as Germany, 250,000 as the US.

 

[Lazy_Boy]

It would be interesting to see what you losses in troops were compared to real life, see if as the USSR you lose 6 Million, 2 million as Germany, 250,000 as the US.

Exactly.... at the least just a generic "casualties" figure that includes POWs since paradox doesn't want to deal with that. Also divided between nation to nation. I'd love to see how many millions I inflicted on the Soviets. See if I can maintain that historical 4-1 loss ratio haha.

 

[krieger11b]

Exactly.... at the least just a generic "casualties" figure that includes POWs since paradox doesn't want to deal with that. Also divided between nation to nation. I'd love to see how many millions I inflicted on the Soviets. See if I can maintain that historical 4-1 loss ratio haha.

I thought it was 9 to 1, I guess it may depend on your source. Maybe that is overall for the whole war. I would think that the ratio in 1945 would have been a lot lower than 1941.

 

[mvsnconsolegene]

I think it would be a good idea at the end of the game to keep track of how many casualties occurred during your game. I always loved statistics and it would be nice to compare the casualties in your game to what historically happened. I love the fact that hearts of iron 2 keeps track of sunken ships, why not land units? Just a thought...

Agreed.

I also think they need to have something else at the end of the game. Not a cinematic, but some neat statistics (most skilled leaders), etc.

- MVSN

 

[Alex_brunius]

If they are gonna save manpower losses they could aswell give us detailed statistics. I know I would like something like this

xxxx/xxxxxx sailors died.
xxx/xxxx airmen died.
xxxxxx/xxxxxxx soldiers died.
xxx/xxxxx tanks lost.
xxxx/xxxxx veichles lost.

xxxxx/xxxxxxx warship tonnage lost.
xxxxxxx/xxxxxxxx convoy tonnage lost.
xxxxx/xxxxx sub tonnage lost.

Perhaps even statistics with grafs, cost efficiency (in ICdays) and compairsons over each front individually.

 

[unmerged(72564)]

It would add a lot of flavor. Give you a means of measuring your success in the conflict. Let factions consider this when negotiating peace.

As japan I often try to track how many Soviet divisions fall. I often come up with over 150. The actual losses must be far higher.

Losses should result in some pressure on the government. The manpower pool doesn't achieve that.

 

[potski]

Exactly.... at the least just a generic "casualties" figure that includes POWs since paradox doesn't want to deal with that. Also divided between nation to nation. I'd love to see how many millions I inflicted on the Soviets. See if I can maintain that historical 4-1 loss ratio haha.

I would also like to see some more realism, and asked for realistic figures of overall manpower, and numbers of men recruited into each new unit. But I didn't consider the implications of this.

However, grossly offensive remarks like this make it clear why we shouldn't have those realistic figures, and why Paradox would want to steer clear of anything that can be construed as a "body count". I never considered that in this day and age there are still those who would laugh at the loss of life of millions of human beings.

Earlier today in the UK we marked the sacrifice of the millions who died in the "Great War" which ended exactly 90 years ago, and the conflicts since. The moderators should ban you.

 

[unmerged(121827)]

There will sadly always be a minority of idiots in any forum, those will be dealt with by the moderators.
I think that there should be realistic casualty figures though, you can work those out anyway (assuming 10.000 - 15.000 man divisions and strenght percentage losses), it makes a lot of sense as a statistic in WW2 strategy game.
On the subject of POWs, to me it is obvious that when you defeat an encircled division and it 'fades out', this division has been taken as POWs. There is nothing inherently controversial about taking POWs, actually it would be barbaric to NOT take POWs, this hasn't happened since medieval times though afaik. What you then do with those POWs is a controversial question and Paradox is completely right to steer clear of that.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I never considered that in this day and age there are still those who would laugh at the loss of life of millions of human beings.

There is nothing wrong with having historical numbers. If someone wants to laugh at them then thats their thing and not paradox. There are lot of other much much worse games about detailed mutilation and nuclear war.

Losses are already in HoI2, to count them is only a technicality or a statistic possibly doable in a mod. I know there is one for naval units at least.

I would on the other hand like to reinforce the educational value of having real numbers and statistics. Knowing that my latest order cost 10'000 digital soldiers life is also something special in ways of roleplaying and immersion.

 

[unmerged(78438)]

There is nothing wrong with having historical numbers. If someone wants to laugh at them then thats their thing and not paradox. There are lot of other much much worse games about detailed mutilation and nuclear war.

Losses are already in HoI2, to count them is only a technicality or a statistic possibly doable in a mod. I know there is one for naval units at least.

I would on the other hand like to reinforce the educational value of having real numbers and statistics. Knowing that my latest order cost 10'000 digital soldiers life is also something special in ways of roleplaying and immersion.

I agree. Knowing that I lost a war with <insert nation> at the cost of a million lives, inflicting ten million on them would make me feel that much more motivated to rebuild and continue the game.

I like to (in any game, all the way to the Total War series) inflict wars of attrition. Exterminate the population base for an army, and you have no challenges to stand against you. In the Total War games (past Shogun), this is done by inflicting extreme losses against an army, then allowing them to retreat and replenish the damaged units. This lowers the overall experience of the unit (usually canceling the experience they've gained from doing battle), lowers the population of the towns/cities they use to replenish these losses, and once they army is defeated a second time, finally moving in to crush the opposition. Dead army. Dead enemy settlement (followed by extermination, burning of all buildings, then the immediate withdraw of my forces to allow the settlement to rebel back to the enemy, albiet in a useless state). Dead frontline of the war.

In Vicky, this works to a lesser extent, although I havent really noticed much of an affect. (When you wipe out an army, and they replenish, it seems it simply takes Manpower rather than actually exterminating soldier POPs. I could be wrong.)

Obviously, the best game for this is HoI2, in which Manpower isnt something you simply get an unlimited amount of. By measuring ACTUAL numbers losses, you can get a good idea of "Was it worth it?".

My only wish is that the manpower output of provinces would decrease as well, because quite frankly, I find it hard to believe that the population (soldier output) of territories in HoI2 have unlimited manpower to throw into any war machine.

 

[Alex_brunius]

In Vicky, this works to a lesser extent, although I havent really noticed much of an affect. (When you wipe out an army, and they replenish, it seems it simply takes Manpower rather than actually exterminating soldier POPs. I could be wrong.)

Vicky is actually detailed enough for the soldier POPs (or worker POPs with reserves) to be annihilated. I once had an entire region in southern Japan devoid of all population because of a costly war in China.

Obviously, the best game for this is HoI2, in which Manpower isnt something you simply get an unlimited amount of. By measuring ACTUAL numbers losses, you can get a good idea of "Was it worth it?".

My only wish is that the manpower output of provinces would decrease as well, because quite frankly, I find it hard to believe that the population (soldier output) of territories in HoI2 have unlimited manpower to throw into any war machine.

Developers have already stated that the problem with no upper manpower limit (Giving minors with 40divisions by 1950) will be solved.

 

[Lazy_Boy]

I would also like to see some more realism, and asked for realistic figures of overall manpower, and numbers of men recruited into each new unit. But I didn't consider the implications of this.

However, grossly offensive remarks like this make it clear why we shouldn't have those realistic figures, and why Paradox would want to steer clear of anything that can be construed as a "body count". I never considered that in this day and age there are still those who would laugh at the loss of life of millions of human beings.

Earlier today in the UK we marked the sacrifice of the millions who died in the "Great War" which ended exactly 90 years ago, and the conflicts since. The moderators should ban you.

What exactly do you think this game represents? Do you try and minimize enemy casualties when you play or something? It's a grand strategy war simulation and there's no reason not to have statistics in it. Casualties is an important thing in war. Seriously why would you play this game other than wanting to re-fight WW2? I'm not asking for a concentration camp simulator for christ's sake.

 

[unmerged(122939)]

I'm in favour of having a detailed statistic of how many man were lost... gives the game a more human touch... because it's not the same i.e., playing with the SU and you lost 20 div... now you see that it cost you 200MP and you say "hell, now I need to produce 20 more and expend another 200MP"... but with numbers you could see that in fact cost you 120.000 men that get killed or captured, and probably you would say "wow, I lost 120.000 men trying to defende that province..." and probably ( ) you would try to avoid so high losses...
but it's a weapon of double edge... because you could also now that your forces are in germany to cause similar losses to what you have... but I'm sure that aren't much retardeds how wanted to see in that way ...

 

[Teep]

I'm also in favour of this idea but i am curious if you think it would be feasible to also simulate losses of tanks and aircraft. I'm also curious whether you think that you could see the amount lost on individual ships or would it just be land divisions?

 

[Rommel 459]

it should be easy enough to setup in a way that takes all losses into account

just convert each point of manpower into X thousand men, when you lose a division count the total manpower spent on both the division and any supporting brigade as KIA, for replacement casualties count them as KIA as they are replaced into the division through the IC slider process

if you count the replacements as KIA before the division is repaired then the end result will be inaccurate as you will have untis at half strength which surrender and get the same manpower point counted twice.

though that does make it weird since you won't be counting KIA's as they happen but rather as their replacement reaches the front.

 

[potski]

What exactly do you think this game represents? Do you try and minimize enemy casualties when you play or something? It's a grand strategy war simulation and there's no reason not to have statistics in it. Casualties is an important thing in war. Seriously why would you play this game other than wanting to re-fight WW2? I'm not asking for a concentration camp simulator for christ's sake.

I don't want to "re-fight WW2". When I play HOI there are no casualties: no-one is killed or injured, no-one has their house bombed, no-one is starved or tortured, and no-one becomes a slave. Neither in actuality, nor in any sad little fantasy world in my head. Because I can tell that it is a game I am playing.

Last week, at the 11th hour of the 11th day in the 11th month, 90 years exactly since the end of WWI, we remembered all of those who gave their lives for our freedoms and liberties, in that War, and all Wars since. They were real people, not statistics. And they had real families and friends, who grieved at their loss.

They died fighting to protect our rights, including our right to freedom of expression. You are able to exercise those rights today because of their sacrifice. When you grow up you might appreciate that. In the meantime, please don't laugh at them.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I don't want to "re-fight WW2".

They already have a "statistics" tab in the main interface. So we can hope. If you don't like it you don't have to click it or view any statistics...
We are just asking for an option to view them since we want to "re-fight WW2".