Carthage...

[Rommel22]

I am fascinated by Carthage history, I have read several books on Carthage and its struggle with Rome, I have no doubt Carthage will be portrayed correctly in EU:Rome, but I just have a questions.

Will government be unique for certain nations? Carthage was a Republic but different from Rome. For example Carthage had a Senate, but also the “Hundred and Four”, these were judges who oversaw Generals and their actions and regular day to day policies.

Will Carthage start out with a powerful navy if you start the game at 280BC? They were a trading empire so naturally they built themselves a power fleet.

Will there be any events or any way of tracking who is born, so for example there might be a Hannibal Barca born or a Hasdrubal Barca and so on? Which brings me to another question, will each nation, each culture or region have specific name for their leaders or characters? I assume so, bust had to ask.

Will there be a way to simulate Carthage’s fairly low manpower and relying heavily on mercenaries as they did historically?

Will there be a way to raise certain troops only in certain regions. I know EU is abstracted anyway, but will it be possible to raise say for example Balearic Slingers on the Balearic Islands only? Certain troops having better stats, we know Balearic slingers had a reputation for being very accurate and skilled with the slings.

I guess that is it for now.

 

[Archaalen]

Well, compared to the other Mediterranean states of the time, Cathage and Rome's forms of government were the most similar. From what we know of Cathage, both were republics with elected officials of various types and two types of legislative bodies: one for the people (Assembly) and one for the nobility (Senate/Hundred and Four). Both were also much more stable than the Greek states further east. I would say, give them the same form of government. What should make Rome unique is their ability to incorporate new peoples into their citizen body. Maybe the best thing to do is make Carthage have only one culture (Punic) and no ability to gain new ones.

As for mercenaries, there should be a market for mercenaries available to everyone (Carthage never owned any part of Gaul, but had plenty of their mercenaries), and maybe Carthage can be given a discount on hiring them.

 

[Strager]

I personally hope you get to "build your own government" so to speak - allow you to determine if you have an emperor, a senate, etc. -- various factors giving you diffrent bonuses/disadvantages. This way if you formed a cohesive Gaul nation, you could theoreticly get even ahead of Rome in types of troops, etc. -- I hate how in most games the barbarians are always weaker, even if they have all the advantages. Rome wouldnt have been so strong, had they not grown to the size they did.

 

[kierun]

As far as I know, there are no primary writing from Carthage detailing the Punic wars. Hannibal did have a historian with him (A Greek those name escapes me) but his volumes were lost.

Archeology did provide quiet a bit of evidence on how Carthaginians lived. If you are thinking of a holiday, Tunisia is well worth a trip!

 

[Vacceo]

As for mercenaries, there should be a market for mercenaries available to everyone (Carthage never owned any part of Gaul, but had plenty of their mercenaries), and maybe Carthage can be given a discount on hiring them.

For some cultures in the mediterranean area, taking the mercenary life was an option as common as being pesant or shepherd, so it´s not strange or difficult to find mercenaries if you have the money or leadership to attract all those guys.

 

[unmerged(59881)]

....~ What should make Rome unique is their ability to incorporate new peoples into their citizen body. Maybe the best thing to do is make Carthage have only one culture (Punic) and no ability to gain new ones.

As for mercenaries, there should be a market for mercenaries available to everyone (Carthage never owned any part of Gaul, but had plenty of their mercenaries), and maybe Carthage can be given a discount on hiring them.

For the first point, I don't know whether this is a good idea. It was just a different type of thinking, AFAIK Carthage was not really interested in controlling areas that were far away. They were happy trading with them and controlling them by economical means but did not try to change the peoples language and culture. In contrast, Rome wanted to control the areas directly and "romanised" the relevant areas. As there are many ways in between I could really think having a slider for this.

For the second point: a market for mercenaries is a good idea, the hiring state should be forced to provide transport. It is rather unlikely that a bunch of balearian slingers hangs around in Carthage until the are hired or mercenaries from Gaulle incidentially turn up in Sicily... and no, don't give Carthage a discount, make mercenaries expensive and make trade more important. Trade was the backbone of Carthage's economy which was much stronger than Rome's which in the relevant time mainly relied on agriculture.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

I agree. Carthago should, IMO, be the nation most focused on trade and least focused on direct conquest (even though they did establish several colonies in Spain).

 

[SirGrotius]

You're basically saying that there should be more than one "republic" type. I bet both Rome and Carthage will have the same "republic" government types, but there will be huge differences in manpower (determined by manpower in provinces owned and probably something similar to national ideas), and interactions with a larger body akin to the HRE in EUIII (I'm imagining there will be a Roman Forum for instance to manage the different personalities).

I'd like to see National Traits to further differentiate nations, maybe Carthage could have a Trade bonus but Manpower malus, but I think the uber-dynamic nymphos would throw up because of this.

 

[unmerged(59881)]

AFAIK, the colonialisation of Hispania was a direct consequence of the actual loss of Sicily in the first Punic war. There were other Carthagian colonies earlier, but they were more or less trading posts and did not exercise any control over the land. Also, some factions in Carthage were willing to give up the Hispanian possessions when Rome threatened to declare war. Rome would never have given up any territory.
I just hope ressources will play a larger role in the game, especially the trade with grain was so very important making Sicily, Northern Africa and Egypt so important for the later Roman Empire.

Please Paradox, give us trade as a possibility to make serious money and not just to fuel research or to increase inflation. Buy cheap from local markets, ship it to other areas and sell with a profit, use your galleys to protect the trade routes against pirates and other factions... Just a dream.
Probably I should start a new thread about this

 

[Alhazen]

I would expect to see something similar to the politics system in HoI or Vicky, with various political 'parties' vying for control of both Rome and Carthage's senates--Populares, Optimates, Anti-Barcids, Pro-Barcids, etc.

 

[Rommel22]

Please no discounts or negative bonuses for nations to equal them out. Carthage was able to hire mercenaries in such huge numbers thanks to its strong economy fueled by its trade. Carthage after all was a trading empire if you want to call it that.

Carthage should be very strong in trade at 280BC (or whenever the game starts) and be able to hire mercenaries for its armies. This is what they actually did after all, they were able to maintain and support huge mercenary armies abroad for years on end. Of course added to this was after successful battles or sieges the amount of loot helped pay those soldiers.

This needs to be simulated as well, raiding, looting and foraging, but Alhazen made a thread about this already.

 

[Archaalen]

While there are no Punic accounts about Carthage or its wars, one good source about Carthage's form of government is Aristotle's book, Politics. He has an entire chapter (Chapter 11, Book 2) on the constitution of Carthage. While it would be much better having a native description of the city, and one closer to the timeperiod of the game, it's really worth a look if you want a description of Carthaginian politics without a Roman bias (though of course, there is some Greek bias, but it's not nearly as strong as the Romans')

Also, so far as any modern research can determine, there were no political "parties" in either Rome or Carthage. Politics was mostly personal, centered around individual political leaders like Hannibal or Julius Caesar, not permanent political blocs with specific policies and agendas.

 

[unmerged(59881)]

While there are no Punic accounts about Carthage or its wars, one good source about Carthage's form of government is Aristotle's book, Politics. He has an entire chapter (Chapter 11, Book 2) on the constitution of Carthage. While it would be much better having a native description of the city, and one closer to the timeperiod of the game, it's really worth a look if you want a description of Carthaginian politics without a Roman bias (though of course, there is some Greek bias, but it's not nearly as strong as the Romans')

Thanks for mentioning this book. I need to get myself a copy next time I'm in a book shop! It is really a pitty that no Carthagian sources are left. In the end end the saying is true: history is written by the winner!

 

[Archaalen]

Or, by the people whose account survives the longest. After all, the Israelites didn't "win", but their account (the Old Testament) outlasted the Hittites, Babylonians, Assyrians, and Egyptians. Aristotle is cool to read anyway, but that chapter in particular fascinated me, hadn't expected to come across that in reading for a class about Western political theory.

 

[FeanorSR]

Hello,

i´m very interested in this game, even though i haven´t bought the latest eu incarnation (mostly i´m playing hoi+mods). Anyway, wouldn´t it be possible to simulate the use of mercenaries if you add an option to buy manpower. all factions with low mp could increase their pool and thoose with high mp could use their money for different things.
I know that this approach wouldn´t simulate the use of certain crack troops like the balearic slingers, but different kinkds of troops will be simulated (and added via mods) anyway.

Just a thought.

 

[kierun]

Thanks for mentioning this book. I need to get myself a copy next time I'm in a book shop! It is really a pitty that no Carthagian sources are left. In the end end the saying is true: history is written by the winner!

Adrian Goldsworthy's The Punic Wars is very good as well. It covers all the three wars in some details. Basil Liddell Hart Scipio Africanus: Greater Than Napoleon is well worth a read as well even if it is (oddly enough) biased towards Scipio.

 

[Swamp Rat]

Will government be unique for certain nations? Carthage was a Republic but different from Rome. For example Carthage had a Senate, but also the “Hundred and Four”, these were judges who oversaw Generals and their actions and regular day to day policies.

There will defintiely be different kind of government systems. The dev diary reveals as much. It also mentions a Military Republic which is probably Rome. That leaves a good chance that there will be other types of Republics like say maybe Merchant Republic or Oligarchic Republic (the actual gameterm is unknown).

Its a guess but i think a well founded one.

 

[unmerged(59881)]

Cheers,
I will have to postpone the read due to problems at work. But the book titles are written down in my notebook and I will have a look in Christmas time.

Anyway, wouldn´t it be possible to simulate the use of mercenaries if you add an option to buy manpower. all factions with low mp could increase their pool and thoose with high mp could use their money for different things.

I don't think this is a good idea if we are talking about contracting mercenaries from other regions. IMO the hiring faction would have to make an effort to raise a mercenary unit somewhere and then march or ship it wherever the generals need it. By just increasing the manpower pool you skip all the gaming issues in connection with that. IMO it adds to the strategical depth if you have to decide whether you should hire a mercenary unit in Gaul but need to transport it to e.g. Carthage or else hire a unit from Northern Africa that doesn't need to march such a long way and can't be intercepted by a fleet.
I would absolutely love it, if we had regionalised mercenary manpower pools.

 

[Rommel22]

Adrian Goldsworthy's The Punic Wars is very good as well. It covers all the three wars in some details. Basil Liddell Hart Scipio Africanus: Greater Than Napoleon is well worth a read as well even if it is (oddly enough) biased towards Scipio.

Very good book, I am reading it for the 3rd time now. Not because I am slow or don't remember, but it is very well written and very informative.

Another book I'd reccomend on Carthage and Rome and the conflict between the two is, Fall of Carthage, also very well written. I'd recommend both of them.

 

[Strager]

Romes govt has been confrimed to be called "Military Republic" -- giving suggestion that theres more than one kind.