Carriers in a normal naval battle?

[Caesar_Augustus]

Does anyone know how carriers (with CAGs) play out in normal ship-to-ship naval battles?

What I mean to ask is: Notwithstanding that CAGs can be specifically sent on a naval strike mission, what happens in a normal ship-to-ship naval battle involving carriers?

Do the carrier's CAGs take part in the battle though the player does not control them? In other words, do the CAGs automatically use their sea_attack values "invisibly" to the player?

Or does the carrier's native sea_attack value—without CAGs—take part in such a battle?
Thanks for any insight!

 

[marxianTJ]

The Carrier's sea attack value would only come into play in the event that it actually was in range to fire at something, insofar as I know, it "fires" its CAGs like guns throughout the entire combat and their sea attack values are used.

 

[Kovax]

The "CAG Duty" mission allows the carrier to "fire" the aircraft as "guns" in a naval battle, from ranges beyond those of other ships. Meanwhile, the CAGs also defend the fleet against air attack (but not from an opposing carrier's "shots" with its own CAGs if it's in range). Ships don't get their normal AA fire against the CAGs during the carrier's "shot", so it basically bypasses all of the normal air-to-surface combat mechanics. I regard it as seriously broken.

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

The Carrier's sea attack value would only come into play in the event that it actually was in range to fire at something, insofar as I know, it "fires" its CAGs like guns throughout the entire combat and their sea attack values are used.

I see. But a carrier’s firing distance is always the furthest of any ship-class, so I should think that if a carrier gets “in range” it will always use the sea_attack value of its CAGs, unless of course it has no CAGs. If I’m reading this aright...

 

[Kovax]

I see. But a carrier’s firing distance is always the furthest of any ship-class, so I should think that if a carrier gets “in range” it will always use the sea_attack value of its CAGs, unless of course it has no CAGs. If I’m reading this aright...

Correct, as far as I can tell. I don't think it can use the CAGs if they're completely out of ORG, but since they recover ORG every hour, it's only a 1 hour lapse in firepower if/when that happens.

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

The "CAG Duty" mission allows the carrier to "fire" the aircraft as "guns" in a naval battle, from ranges beyond those of other ships. Meanwhile, the CAGs also defend the fleet against air attack (but not from an opposing carrier's "shots" with its own CAGs if it's in range). Ships don't get their normal AA fire against the CAGs during the carrier's "shot", so it basically bypasses all of the normal air-to-surface combat mechanics. I regard it as seriously broken.

So this is somewhat similar to the naval battle dinamics of the Hoi2 series, i.e., the carrier’s CAG sea_attack values are fundamentally used as very long-ranged ship-board guns, though the CAGs air_defence values defend against enemy aircraft (not CAGs).

But if indeed a ship’s normal AA fire is not computed for defending against an enemy carrier’s CAGs (because the game mechanics treat the sea_attack of CAGs as very long-ranged ship-board guns), I wonder if this could be offset somehow with special modding...

 

[Kovax]

So this is somewhat similar to the naval battle dinamics of the Hoi2 series, i.e., the carrier’s CAG sea_attack values are fundamentally used as very long-ranged ship-board guns, though the CAGs air_defence values defend against enemy aircraft (not CAGs).

Very close: amend that to read "(not CAGs on CAG Duty)".

 

[Caesar_Augustus]

Correct, as far as I can tell. I don't think it can use the CAGs if they're completely out of ORG, but since they recover ORG every hour, it's only a 1 hour lapse in firepower if/when that happens.

Yes, that follows.

 

[Wraith11B]

Correct, as far as I can tell. I don't think it can use the CAGs if they're completely out of ORG, but since they recover ORG every hour, it's only a 1 hour lapse in firepower if/when that happens.

Oh, they can and I've seen both myself and the AI basically wipe out whole CAG wings when it happens if the battles last long enough (EDIT: not basically. It's happened. In my AAR game, the whole British Navy wound up without a single usable CAG after sending their fleets through the Kattegat and into the Pacific for long periods). Unless there's a bug somewhere in my game, I don't think the recovery of ORG matches that of the drain for using them on CAG Duty.

 

[Kovax]

The only time I've seen AI planes lost is if they're also fighting against other planes or attacking ships. That's where land-based INT comes into play: you beat up their CAGs enough with INT that they're out of ORG. An hour later, they fly again with 0.1 ORG, and your INT starts inflicting heavy Strength damage on them, or their CAG Duty mission starts inflicting Strength Damage because there's no ORG left to take out.

I've never seen a CAG die unless it's already been badly mauled by a Naval Strike or Port Strike mission, or by opposing aircraft. Granted, the ORG loss (transferring to Strength damage when ORG runs out) may inflict enough damage to take them out if they're already on their last legs, but I've never seen it happen otherwise. They'll normally sink several fleets of ships before the mission ORG losses adds up to that point. I'm guessing that you're seeing a combination of things, and the CAG Duty losses are only a part of it.

 

[Wraith11B]

Well, quite, I apologize if my post seemed poorly worded. In carrier-on-carrier (and versus land-based air in the Kattegat) combat, both mine and the AI's CAGs deorged after a few days of strikes and then it was off to the strength races, and then rapid death for those air groups. Britain expended all fifteen that they had/built, and as Japan I lost about four or five.

 

[CocoCincinnati]

So no matter how much you research and upgrade AA for your ships, they will never fire at opposing CAG's in a naval battle? Yeah, that seems pretty broken.

 

[Paglia]

@Kovax


I don't have stats to show, but I know that when we used to play in MP, "carrier & escort" vs "carrier & escort" battles usually lead to elimination of CAGs through shredding of the units... It was faster if you sent in a INT but CAGs vs CAGs were doing a good job killing each others or AA was doing the job... but something was killing those CAGs.

So, I have a hard time understanding your statements on the fact CAGs don't get exposed to AA firing or don't kill each others.

I might be missing something or I just don't understand your statements. Can you clarify ?

 

[Big Nev]

If you look, you should see that carriers (& CVEs) have a sea attack of zero.
This means that their "guns" simply don't exist and can do no damage to other shipping.

What actually happens is the range is used to keep the carriers away from other ships while their CAGs operate just as they would if sent on a naval strike mission. It's just automatice and will over-rule any other orders they may have. A ships CAGs will ALWAYS attack anemy surface forces if your surface forces are engaged in that sea zone, providded they have ORG, of course .

And CAGs plus shipboard AA will shred CAGs much more effectively than CAGs OR shipboard AA.