Carrier Warfare

[Lowki]

This is just a speculative post but do we think that Stellaris will be dominated by carrier based fleets? Or will normal ships have an edge?

In the last video of the Blog I watched their fleet got swarmed by lots of smaller ships (largely corvettes I believe) which lead me to suspect that perhaps swarms of small ships will always have an edge.

Also in other 4x games I've played carrier warfare dominated. I'd just prefer that Stellaris warfare doesn't become a space version of WW2 surface warfare where the carrier is King.

Pure speculation on my part, does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Misiok]

Small ship swarms will have an edge as long as you don't build ships with Point Defense. I think PD would also help with intensive rocket spam.

Focusing your fleet on a single aspect will make them unbeatable until the enemy restructurizes theirs, so you can take them by surprise once or twice if you're fast, but then it should be an uphill battle, at least I hope the AI is capable of doing that.

Basically, balanced fleets are the way to go, or make a few specialised fleets and let them support each other.

 

[KaguroDraven]

We have yet to see a single carrier, or how they work. Moreover the problem with the Corvettes was both Wiz's style of combat, and how the game's Weapon system works. Specifically Small weapons are better for little ships, Large for big ships, and Medium I'm guessing for the two middle classes of ship. Smaller ships tend to have smaller Weapon Mounts, it looks like. Wiz makes big ships, with Large and Medium weapon mounts for the most part.
Meaning his weapons were doing somewhere between "fuck" and "all" to the tiny ships the weapons were not meant to handle.

 

[Darustet]

I plan to counter carriers with a few cruisers build around one main gun and tons of anti-missile/fighter/bomber PD.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Smaller ships seem to have far more smaller weapon mounts for their Hull size in terms of fleet limits, so both Corvettes and Destroyers seem far the better choice for escort duty from other smaller vessels, fighters and missiles/torpedoes.

So a good balance of both bigger and smaller ships are probably your best bet... If you want to use only two ship class sizes I would advice on Battleships/Carriers and Destroyers... seem like the best bet if you want to reduce the cost of infrastructure on your research, space stations and dockyards.

 

[Brownbeard]

I cannot recall any space 4X where carriers were efficient. Definitively not MoO2.

 

[Lowki]

I played a lot of SE4 back in the day and Carrier warfare was fairly lethal against all but the highest level point defence

 

[Bladrov XII]

We have yet to see a single carrier, or how they work. Moreover the problem with the Corvettes was both Wiz's style of combat, and how the game's Weapon system works. Specifically Small weapons are better for little ships, Large for big ships, and Medium I'm guessing for the two middle classes of ship. Smaller ships tend to have smaller Weapon Mounts, it looks like. Wiz makes big ships, with Large and Medium weapon mounts for the most part.
Meaning his weapons were doing somewhere between "fuck" and "all" to the tiny ships the weapons were not meant to handle.

This is incorrect. I believe Martin explains exactly how hangars/attack craft work in last week's stream.

 

[Daetrin]

I expect carriers will be useful as a combined arms approach. Fighter carriers would replace some of the need for corvette swarms in terms of defending against / attacking smaller targets, or bomber carriers would serve as anti-hard-target support for corvettes that are attacking Hugboxes or similar.

 

[KaguroDraven]

This is incorrect. I believe Martin explains exactly how hangars/attack craft work in last week's stream.

He explained, that's not the same as seeing them in action.

 

[Bob_Herzog]

This is just a speculative post but do we think that Stellaris will be dominated by carrier based fleets? Or will normal ships have an edge?

In the last video of the Blog I watched their fleet got swarmed by lots of smaller ships (largely corvettes I believe) which lead me to suspect that perhaps swarms of small ships will always have an edge.

Also in other 4x games I've played carrier warfare dominated. I'd just prefer that Stellaris warfare doesn't become a space version of WW2 surface warfare where the carrier is King.

Pure speculation on my part, does anyone have any thoughts?

We saw carriers in the ship construction and I think some were already build and in the fleets. But as it was explained the fighters and bombers are essentially similar to missiles in this game (so PD will counter them). When you use combat computers to give carriers and other long range ships orders that suit their role it is likley that they can be effective. With PD and agressive orders they can also be countered.

I really don't know what 4x games you played but I have expirience the other way around where more often than not fighters and bombers were not effective (at least not when cost and space was taken into account).

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

Fighter swarms were effective in Gratuitous Space Battles, at least until the enemy got wise to them and built dedicated escort frigates with PD weapons, at which point they died like flies.

I think @Misiok is right: any dedicated strategy can be hosed by an opponent who builds to counter it. The smart move will be, IMHO, to either build a balanced fleet or engage in a Red Queen race.

 

[Turin the Mad]

Fighter swarms were effective in Gratuitous Space Battles, at least until the enemy got wise to them and built dedicated escort frigates with PD weapons, at which point they died like flies.

I think @Misiok is right: any dedicated strategy can be hosed by an opponent who builds to counter it. The smart move will be, IMHO, to either build a balanced fleet or engage in a Red Queen race.

That's a term I've not heard used much. Care to elaborate on what a Red Queen race is, TBV?

edit - found it on wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen_hypothesis

Edit 2: From what we've seen during the Blorgstream, it seems that ships are adapted and counter-adapted to one's current foes. I noticed Wiz examining his foes at cKnoor's prompting, with Wiz's analysis summing up that their existing designs would fair fine against their northwestern foes. It's an interesting way to gather intel. I feel that it lends some value to making use of "reconnaissance fleets" or "probing fleets", especially if there is some form of stealth/cloaking technology available at some point in the game.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

That's a term I've not heard used much. Care to elaborate on what a Red Queen race is, TBV?

The term comes from Alice in Wonderland via evolutionary biology. A Red Queen Arms Race is one in which each side is constantly trying to adapt to the other's strengths and weaknesses. In Stellaris terms this would go something like:

1. I build battleships and you build corvettes so you beat me.
2. I then build destroyers so I beat you.
3. You notice that my destroyers mostly use lasers so you emphasise shields over armour and beat me.
4. I switch to using mass drivers and beat you.
5. You build cruisers to counter my destroyers and beat me.
6. I rearm my destroyers with anti-cruiser missiles and beat you.
7. You go heavily on point defence and beat me.
8. I switch away from missiles and fighters, thus leaving your point defence useless, and beat you.
9. And so on.

This is different from a conventional arms race because the weapons we're building aren't actually "better" in any objective sense, and won't make us more powerful against a third party. We're both just trying to be well suited to defeating one another, and are pouring vast resources into doing it.

"Well, in our country," said Alice, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere else—if you run very fast for a long time, as we've been doing."

"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"

 

[FearTheAmish]

Combined arms approach is going to be key to early combat to find effective strategies against your enemies then build hard counters.

 

[Detjen]

I am not fully sold on destroyers and corvettes being that useful after you discover larger ship classes so im gonna take a risk in my game and try a Battleship/cruiser fleet.
2 types of battleship, one carrier with pd on any open slots, and one just heavy guns.
2 maybe 3 types of cruisers, One battlecruiser which will just be a small battleship, maybe a cruiser carrier meant to supplement the battleship-carrier with another wing, and then cruisers with medium and small weaponry and a fair amount of PD weaponry.
Any destroyers and corvettes I build will still in homespace to discurage building in my territory.

Basically I am thinking I can put enough small weapons on a cruiser screen to overcome multiple destroyers and corvettes and some aid from strike craft to quickly tear the little ships apart. I of course could be horribly wrong but I wont know for sure for another week or so I guess.

 

[Trithemius]

I like that Corvettes remain viable choices. It kind of reflects a pre-dreadnought/Tsushima aesthetic where small fast ships cam threaten large "all big gun" ships of the line.

The Blorg clearly need to get Torpedo Boat Destroyers (or Kinetic Corvette Destroyers...) operational so they can use their massed small-mount guns and superior armour to cut down the cheap enemy swarm.

For the OP: I hope carrier warfare doesn't prove supereffective. I admit to being at a loss about how carriers are different from missiles in space... but I prefer that battleship feel rather than something like WW2.

 

[parkerg12]

My plan will be to have a core fleet of very balanced out large ships with an emphasis on staying at long range . and a massive capacity to quickly build up smaller ships. I will start a war by quickly scouting the enemy and seeing what weapons and defenses they have. then I will rush out corvettes and destroyers geared to counter the enemy fleet. Thus maybe I wont be able to completely counter my enemy but at least I will have a sizable chunk that does. this will also reduce the amount of fleet maintenance and upgrade waste of my fleets.

-oops should mention , carriers will surely be apart of the core fleet since they will be another balancing act in order for me to be able to counter a wide variety of enemies

 

[Yenzen]

I am not fully sold on destroyers and corvettes being that useful after you discover larger ship classes so im gonna take a risk in my game and try a Battleship/cruiser fleet.
2 types of battleship, one carrier with pd on any open slots, and one just heavy guns.
2 maybe 3 types of cruisers, One battlecruiser which will just be a small battleship, maybe a cruiser carrier meant to supplement the battleship-carrier with another wing, and then cruisers with medium and small weaponry and a fair amount of PD weaponry.
Any destroyers and corvettes I build will still in homespace to discurage building in my territory.

Basically I am thinking I can put enough small weapons on a cruiser screen to overcome multiple destroyers and corvettes and some aid from strike craft to quickly tear the little ships apart. I of course could be horribly wrong but I wont know for sure for another week or so I guess.

It seems to me there's many paths to the same goal.

If you start specialising too many of your cruisers to be fly swatters, your capital ship navy will spend too much time trying to deal with the little corvette pests while the enemy fleet Battleships and cruisers will be bombarding you from long range.

 

[Bob_Herzog]

I am not fully sold on destroyers and corvettes being that useful after you discover larger ship classes so im gonna take a risk in my game and try a Battleship/cruiser fleet.
2 types of battleship, one carrier with pd on any open slots, and one just heavy guns.
2 maybe 3 types of cruisers, One battlecruiser which will just be a small battleship, maybe a cruiser carrier meant to supplement the battleship-carrier with another wing, and then cruisers with medium and small weaponry and a fair amount of PD weaponry.
Any destroyers and corvettes I build will still in homespace to discurage building in my territory.

Basically I am thinking I can put enough small weapons on a cruiser screen to overcome multiple destroyers and corvettes and some aid from strike craft to quickly tear the little ships apart. I of course could be horribly wrong but I wont know for sure for another week or so I guess.

From what we know the Cruiser and Battleship will have the same amount of hull segments. So it will be interesting to see, if the Battleship Carrier varriant really offers more capacity for fighters and bombers or will just become a more heavily armed and armoured Carrier. In that case a pure stand-off Carrier might be best build in a Cruiser since thos ealso have higher acceleration (speed) and thus can more easily keep their distance.