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kviiri

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While HoI 4 looks like a very decent game even in the old WWW build, the need to drive a single division around just to mop up defenseless, disarmed provinces in the middle of nowhere (Siberia, in the WWW case) feels somehow wrong, laborous and wrong-sort-of-gamey. I know it's probably too tricky to do anything to it before release, but is this something that will be fixed eventually and are there good ideas for solutions?
 
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aruon

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that's what garrison units and the occasional small division are for. plus since i think WWW showed you can create zones that automatically attract friendly units in case of hostile occupation or revolt, it's made much more automatic and not cumbersome.

it's going to be a lot better than the infamous HOI 3 joke of having a single cavalry division trek across all of siberia for a tiny uprising.
 

kviiri

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it's going to be a lot better than the infamous HOI 3 joke of having a single cavalry division trek across all of siberia for a tiny uprising.

Sure, but that doesn't mean it couldn't still be improved upon.
 

aruon

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Why do you say that? Lots of stuff were "about as good as you can get" before someone came up with a better idea.

i mean how do you get better than having a few units posted out in the middle of siberia with the purpose of mopping up random little provinces? if there was a system to automatically occupy an isolated province, would it ever get any use outside of the siberia and central USA? would it cause problems? would it be worth taking the time to build when the current method is almost already covered? i say "as good as it can get" in this case meaning "does there really need to be any time devoted to deal with the barest glimmer of a tertiary quirk?".
 

kviiri

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i mean how do you get better than having a few units posted out in the middle of siberia with the purpose of mopping up random little provinces? if there was a system to automatically occupy an isolated province, would it ever get any use outside of the siberia and central USA? would it cause problems? would it be worth taking the time to build when the current method is almost already covered? i say "as good as it can get" in this case meaning "does there really need to be any time devoted to deal with the barest glimmer of a tertiary quirk?".

I don't think "barest glimmer of tertiary quirk" is a good way to describe such a nuisance.
 

LordOfWar16

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You need to keep in mind that the whole Siberia situation was caused by japan surrendering and all its non-oversea states falling to the USA. Daniel had to retreat his units and start a new liberation attack, but has hindered by a bug that prevented him getting supply on the japanese territory.

I really dont see a big problem. The best way of doing an invasion certainly isnt simply making one huge front and drawing one attackline. Splitting it up and giving your specialized (armored for example) divisions special tasks or paths to break through (plains instead of mountains/forrests) and encircle enemy troops in the progress. Sure, having one or two big main fronts with infantry will probably a good idea, but i dont see that alone being very efficient. You then want to send garrison units behind that to clean up what it left and to suppress the enemy rebells and of course defend against potential enemy attacks.

Just as Daniel did some poorly equipped cavalry units with military police probably will be one of the most efficient ways of dealing with cleaning up behind the main forces, since they are quick, inexpensive and cheap in supply and can suppress the rebells quiet well.

Its worth pointing out that there is no more rebells popping up on the map, but they rather damage and destroy your factories and infrastructure inside a state, reduce supply throughput and give strategic informations like troop movement to the enemy if unrest is really high in that state. They got rid of that entire (a bit annoying) whack-a-rebell mechanic from HoI III, which i really like since resistance will most likely operate from the shadows, with the exception of the warsaw uprising maybe.
 
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While HoI 4 looks like a very decent game even in the old WWW build, the need to drive a single division around just to mop up defenseless, disarmed provinces in the middle of nowhere (Siberia, in the WWW case) feels somehow wrong, laborous and wrong-sort-of-gamey. I know it's probably too tricky to do anything to it before release, but is this something that will be fixed eventually and are there good ideas for solutions?

Lots of strategy games (e.g., Commander: The Great War) have a very simple system where areas that are not defended and do not contain significant cities/towns/VPs/etc. automatically surrender and are occupied, thus sparing the player the laborious task of having to occupy every hex/province/etc. yourself. HOI4 needs something like this.

If you like it can be limited to prevent exploits - the area must be surrounded for a significant enough time, it cannot be larger than a given size etc. etc.

Just as Daniel did some poorly equipped cavalry units with military police probably will be one of the most efficient ways of dealing with cleaning up behind the main forces, since they are quick, inexpensive and cheap in supply and can suppress the rebells quiet well.

None of which, it should be pointed out, is really all that historical. Historically MPs weren't CO-IN specialists, neither were cavalry - light infantry was just as good at CO-IN and arguably better in rough terrain.
 
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LordOfWar16

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Lots of strategy games (e.g., Commander: The Great War) have a very simple system where areas that are not defended and do not contain significant cities/towns/VPs/etc. automatically surrender and are occupied, thus sparing the player the laborious task of having to occupy every hex/province/etc. yourself. HOI4 needs something like this.

If you like it can be limited to prevent exploits - the area must be surrounded for a significant enough time, it cannot be larger than a given size etc. etc.



None of which, it should be pointed out, is really all that historical. Historically MPs weren't CO-IN specialists, neither were cavalry - light infantry was just as good at CO-IN and arguably better in rough terrain.

The important part which alot of you are missing or simply ignoring is, that enemy countries will surrender everything (except oversea territory) to you if you capture enough of their Victory Points forcing them to surrender depending on their National Unity (which was bugged in WWW aswell because it is never supposed to be at 100% as daniel stated and is already fixed). You dont have to capture siberia for example, if you capture all the important soviet cities.

The only reason why Daniel basicly had to take everything was because the soviet national unity was bugged at 100%, which shouldnt be possible as stated above. If that is the case you need to controll 100% of the victory points of course, just ast with 50% national Unity controlling 50% etc.

HoI IV doesnt need a system to automaticly flip occupation of states, especially since all states have something of value in them, let it be cities, resources, airports or simply the state itself which is worth victory points on its own and because it already has that exact system.



The main advantage of cavalry is obviously that it is very mobile and still really cheap. Thats the whole point, especially since you have no rebells to actively fight against. As for regular garrisons a cheap poorly equipped infantry division on low priority for supplies is of course the better choice, in europe for example. If you wanted you could even use 1 heavy tank brigade with an MP company attached with tiger tanks to supress the partisans.
 
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Ostheim

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None of which, it should be pointed out, is really all that historical. Historically MPs weren't CO-IN specialists, neither were cavalry - light infantry was just as good at CO-IN and arguably better in rough terrain.

All sorts of formations were used to fight partisans and I think representing the partisan war abstractly is the way to go
 

FOARP

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The important part which alot of you are missing or simply ignoring is, that enemy countries will surrender everything (except oversea territory) to you if you capture enough of their Victory Points forcing them to surrender depending on their National Unity (which was bugged in WWW aswell because it is never supposed to be at 100% as daniel stated and is already fixed). You dont have to capture siberia for example, if you capture all the important soviet cities.

The only reason why Daniel basicly had to take everything was because the soviet national unity was bugged at 100%, which shouldnt be possible as stated above. If that is the case you need to controll 100% of the victory points of course, just ast with 50% national Unity controlling 50% etc.

HoI IV doesnt need a system to automaticly flip occupation of states, especially since all states have something of value in them, let it be cities, resources, airports or simply the state itself which is worth victory points on its own and because it already has that exact system.

I'm not sure you quite understood my point - my point is that in some other games, where territory is surrounded, undefended, and contains nothing of value, it is automatically occupied by the attacking party. This avoids the situation where you end up with a Swiss-cheese of unoccupied territory surrounded by occupied territory, and where the attacker can avoid the costs associated with holding down occupied territory merely by simply driving the defender out of their territory and then leaving it unoccupied.

What you are referring to here is the peace-making system, but the system I refer to above operates as the war is ongoing.

All sorts of formations were used to fight partisans and I think representing the partisan war abstractly is the way to go

Making cavalry and MPs CO-IN specialists when they were (and are) nothing of the kind is not about abstracting partisan warfare.
 
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Adonnus

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I'm not sure you quite understood my point - my point is that in some other games, where territory is surrounded, undefended, and contains nothing of value, it is automatically occupied by the attacking party.

In this situation, automatic occupation is totally warranted - and helps avoid ugly occupations too.
 

LordOfWar16

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I'm not sure you quite understood my point - my point is that in some other games, where territory is surrounded, undefended, and contains nothing of value, it is automatically occupied by the attacking party. This avoids the situation where you end up with a Swiss-cheese of unoccupied territory surrounded by occupied territory, and where the attacker can avoid the costs associated with holding down occupied territory merely by simply driving the defender out of their territory and then leaving it unoccupied.

What you are referring to here is the peace-making system, but the system I refer to above operates as the war is ongoing.



Making cavalry and MPs CO-IN specialists when they were (and are) nothing of the kind is not about abstracting partisan warfare.

The problem with that is that every state has something of value as i said eariler. Even an rather empty state is still worth victory points, which the game really shouldnt give you for free. If your attacking plan is bad and you leave alot of holes and dont create a plan that keeps an intact frontline, that is entirely your fault. I certainly dont want to end up in situations where a third of the soviet union simply automaticly flips just because my troops ran by, instead of occuping it as they should do in the first place.
 

FOARP

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The problem with that is that every state has something of value as i said eariler.

Sure, states have value. Provinces, on the other hand, may not, and it's provinces that we're talking about here.

Even an rather empty state is still worth victory points, which the game really shouldnt give you for free. If your attacking plan is bad and you leave alot of holes and dont create a plan that keeps an intact frontline, that is entirely your fault.

The problem is you can basically exploit the game this way - territory that you never occupy cannot breed a resistance movement. We're not talking about a plan of attack that leaves threats in its rear. We're talking about a plan of attack that doesn't bother occupying worthless territory and simply cherry-picks the valuable provinces.
 

LordOfWar16

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Sure, states have value. Provinces, on the other hand, may not, and it's provinces that we're talking about here.



The problem is you can basically exploit the game this way - territory that you never occupy cannot breed a resistance movement. We're not talking about a plan of attack that leaves threats in its rear. We're talking about a plan of attack that doesn't bother occupying worthless territory and simply cherry-picks the valuable provinces.
as far as i could see the occupation of the entire state automaticly flips to the country which occupied the most of it anyway. Atleast in the development diaries and early WWW streams (fall of france) the states flipped to the country which occupied the most provinces in it.
 

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as far as i could see the occupation of the entire state automaticly flips to the country which occupied the most of it anyway. Atleast in the development diaries and early WWW streams (fall of france) the states flipped to the country which occupied the most provinces in it.

My understanding is that it does this when a peace is concluded. What we're talking about here is the swiss-cheesing caused by just not bothering to occupy provinces during an advance, prior to any peace being concluded - is this also covered by this mechanism?