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Context:
Assuming the only 2 start dates will be 867 and 1066, and considering the enormous political developments that gave rise to the Kingdoms of France, Germany, Burgundy, and Italy supplanting traditional kingdoms in the Frankish realm (Neustria, Austrasia, Aquitaine, Alamannia, Bavaria, Lombardy) and even the kingdoms carved out of the unified Carolingian Empire (West, East, and Middle; later Italy, Lotharingia, and Burgundy; later Cisjurane and Transjurane Burgundy), there should be plentiful series of events and mechanics to represent it.

The divided Carolingian Empire was fraught by internal conflict of the Carolingian monarchs as well as devastated by Norse raiders in the north, Slav raiders to the east, and Arab raiders/invasion forces from the Maghreb, Sicily, and Iberia. This chaos and instability caused a disruption in society not seen since the migrations of Germanic tribes and wars of foederati that caused the downfall of the Western Roman Empire.

Consequently, most free peasants sought the protection of manorial lords and (either voluntarily or coercively) tied themselves into a system of bondage already established by the law codes of Charlemagne (codified on the basis of individual subjugated Germanic tribes) and even Roman law.

This was a protection that (of course) could not be provided by the Kings or even Emperors to their subjects as they could not be omnipresent and bickered among themselves over succession to other Carolingian kingdoms and only united to counter the threat Vikings posed in 880 after the final partition treaty; The Treaty of Ribemont, which resolved most disputes and produced perhaps the most stable, lasting borders in Medieval Europe (remaining intact until the Late Middle Ages; when French Kings began aggressively pursuing inheritance in Burgundy).

On top of Vikings, there was also this Boso, the Count of Arles (no, not bozo, Boso). After the death of Louis the Stammerer in 879, Boso renounced allegiance to his two heirs and declared the independence of the "Kingdom of Provence" (at the time an area equivalent to Lower or Cisjurane Burgundy, the largest of the 3 parts of the former Kingdom of the Burgundians). Bishops and nobles assembled from around the Rhône and Saône and convened in the Synod of Mantaille to elect Boso as the first non-Carolingian monarch in traditionally Carolingian Europe. His election set the precedent for non-Carolingians to be elected as opposed to other Carolingians being invited in.

At this point Emperor of the Romans remained a(n at first) hereditary Carolingian title that was not bestowed upon a "King of the Romans" who was ex officio the elected "King of Germany", but awarded to the eldest . It passed down from Charlemagne to Louis the Pious, and Louis was bound by partible inheritance laws to divide his possessions among his 3 sons, though the hereditary imperial title was to be handed down to Lothair I. Louis the Pious outlined several plans for the division of his empire, but the final (838) one pronounced at Worms proclaimed Charles the Bald as heir to the west (including Aquitaine), Lothair the heir to the east (including Lombardy/Italy) but excluding Bavaria, left for Louis the German. In reality, after Louis the Pious' death (840), his sons plunged the Carolingian Empire into civil war, trying to take the imperial throne or at least more territory, and the empire was instead divided by the 843 Treaty of Verdun which resulted in Louis the German carving out a kingdom much larger than the Duchy of Bavaria, Lothair keeping the imperial throne, Italy, and carving out Middle Francia, and Charles carving out West Francia.

Like the Komnenian-ruled Empire, the Carolingian Empire's highest administrative divisions (Kingdoms rather than Themata, Ducates, or Katepanates) were governed by dynastic appointments and wherever applicable, Carolingian monarchs would keep as many appointments as possible within the family. Also like the Komnenian-ruled Empire, this system of dynastic administration only runned cohesively when the Imperial family could work with each other, which after Louis the Pious and mostly thanks to partible inheritance, it didn't.

Louis the Pious made many divisions of his empire during his lifetime. The final division, pronounced at Worms in 838, made Charles the Bald heir to the west, including Aquitaine, and Lothair heir to the east, including Italy and excluding Bavaria, which was left for Louis the German. However, following the emperor's death in 840, the empire was plunged into a civil war that lasted three years (interesting how East Francia would otherwise be just Bavaria, methinks this warrants having East, West, and Middle Francia as titular titles). The Frankish kingdom was then divided by the in 843. Lothair was allowed to keep his imperial title and his kingdom of Italy, and granted the newly created Kingdom of Middle Francia, a corridor of land stretching from Italy to the North Sea, and including the Low Countries, the Rhineland (including Aachen), Burgundy, and Provence. Charles was confirmed in Aquitaine, where Pepin I's son Pepin II was opposing him, and granted West Francia (modern France), the lands west of Lothair's Kingdom. Louis the German was confirmed in Bavaria and granted East Francia (modern Germany), the lands east of Lothair's kingdom.
West Francia (later France)Middle FranciaEast Francia (later Germany)
After Lothair's death in 855, his realm was divided between his sons:
  • Louis II, 855–875, the eldest son, succeeded his father as Emperor and received Italy. For the continuation, see King of Italy.
  • Lothair II, 855–869, the second son, received the northern half of Middle Francia, which came to be named "Lotharingia" (Lorraine) from his name. For the continuation, see the list of rulers of Lorraine.
  • Charles, 855–863, the youngest son, received the southern half of Middle Francia, consisting of Provence and Burgundy.
  • Louis II, called the German, 843–876
    • Bavaria: Carloman, with his father 864–876
Louis divided his lands between his three sons, but they all ended up in the hands of the youngest by 882:

  • Carloman, King of Bavaria 876–880. King of Italy 877
  • Louis III, called the Younger, King of Saxony, Franconia, and Thuringia 876–882, inherited Bavaria from his brother Carloman in 880
  • Charles III, called the Fat, King of Swabia, Alemannia and Rhaetia 876–887, inherited Italy from his brother Carloman in 879, and inherited the remainder of East Francia from his brother Louis in 882. Emperor 881
After the deposition of Charles the Fat, Odo, Count of Paris, was elected King of West Francia (I assume because the Dukes thought a Count could pose no harm or re-centralize the realm). From this point on, West Francia became a definitively separate kingdom, supplanting/superseding Neustria, Aquitaine, and its share of Burgundy and Austrasia. For this reason I think "King of the West Franks" should be a titular title in 867.For the continuation, see King of Burgundy.

Lothair II subsumed his portion of Burgundy into the Kingdom of Lotharingia and at his brother Charles' death, gained some northern districts from his kingdom. When Lothair II died in 869, his realm was divided between his uncles Charles the Bald and Louis the German in the Treaty of Meerssen.

On the death in 888 of Emperor Charles the Fat, who until 884 had united all Frankish kingdoms except for Kingdom of Provence, the nobles and leading clergy of Upper Burgundy assembled at St Maurice and elected Rudolph, count of Auxerre, from the Elder Welf family, as king. At first, he tried to reunite Lotharingia, but opposition by Arnulf of Carinthia forced him to focus on his Burgundian territory.
On the deposition of Charles the Fat, East Francia went to his nephew:
As expected, the man named Boso was an incompetent ruler and Carloman of West Francia had reintegrated Provence into the West Frankish realm by 882. When Carloman died, the nobles of West Francia invited Charles the Fat to assume the kingship. Arnulf of Carinthia would depose Charles in 887 and Boso's son, Louis the Blind was elected. He would be crowned King of Lower Burgundy, blinded after violating an oath to not return to Italy after being forced from it by Berengar (Margrave of Friuli), and appoint Hugh of Arles (Count of Provence, capital from which Arelat is derived) as regent.
After this, the House of Capet ruled France. For the continuation, see the list of French monarchs.Hugh would go on to be elected King of Italy in 924 during a civil war and eject Rudolph II of Upper Burgundy, succeed Louis in 928, try to establish ties with the Byzantine Empire, and eventually hand over Lower Burgundy to Rudolph II who united the two Burgundies into Arelat.

Arelat would be subsumed into the Kingdom of Germany and thus formed an integral part of the HRE.
Louis the Child was the last East Frankish Carolingian ruler. He was succeeded by the (elected) Conrad of Franconia and then the Saxon Ottonian dynasty. For the continuation, see the list of German monarchs.
*Robertians, not Carolingians

Furthermore, the landed nobility within these realms. East Francia/Germany was subdivided into stem duchies. Each stem duchy was subdivided into gau (counties), an administrative unit going back to earlier Carolingian/even Merovingian days. One of Middle Francia's successor states, Lotharingia, would become a stem duchy after the 870 Treaty of Meerssen partitioned it between Louis the German of East Francia and Charles the Bald of West Francia.

At first, these Dukes (sometimes also Margraves/Marquesses) or Margraves (in Tuscany, Verona, Vasconia, and Iberia) were more like royal governors and representatives of royal authority. The seigneurial rights and legal privileges of the landed nobility weren't nearly as developed as they were in the High Middle Ages (the period most are actually thinking of when they explain the hierarchy of feudal government and society in little detail).

Counts, too, originated as a title for royal governors, and they would govern both in county-tier "sub-realms" and Frisia. The Counts of Frisia (later Holland) had to be based in Holland as "Frisian freedom" reigned supreme in West, Middle, and East Frisia.
In the Carolingian Empire, a Gau was a subdivision of the realm, further divided into Hundreds. The Frankish gowe thus appears to correspond roughly to the civitas in other barbarian kingdoms (Visigoths, Burgundians, or the Italian Kingdom of the Lombards). After the end of the Migration Period, the Hundred (centena or hunaria, Old High German huntari) had become a term for an administrative unit or jurisdiction, independent of the figure hundred. The Frankish usage contrasts with Tacitus' Germania, where a pagus was a subdivision of a tribal territory or civitas, corresponding to the Hundred, i.e. areas liable to provide a hundred men under arms, or containing roughly a hundred homesteads each, further divided into vici (villages or farmsteads).[4] Charlemagne, by his capitulary legislation, adopted the comitatus subdivision and appointed local rulers as deputies of the central Imperial authority.

In the German-speaking lands east of East Francia, the Gau formed the unit of administration of the realm during the 9th and 10th centuries and ruled by a Gaugraf ("gau count"). Similar to many shires in England, during the Middle Ages, many such Gaue came to be known as counties or Grafschaften, the territory of a Graf (count) within the Holy Roman Empire. Such a count or Graf would originally have been an appointed governor, but the position generally became an hereditary vassal princedom, or fief in most of continental Europe.
File:Alamannien Hochburgund ca 1000.png
There's also this list of medieval German gau from elsewhere, and this (very large and detailed) map of the Kingdom of Germany within the Holy Roman Empire in 1000 AD.
 
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ArVass

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At first, these Dukes (sometimes also Margraves/Marquesses) or Margraves (in Tuscany, Verona, Vasconia, and Iberia) were more like royal governors and representatives of royal authority. The seigneurial rights and legal privileges of the landed nobility weren't nearly as developed as they were in the High Middle Ages (the period most are actually thinking of when they explain the hierarchy of feudal government and society in little detail).
Probably this is the important part of it
 
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Farfour

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So what do you suggest they do with this information in game?
The first paragraph.
Assuming the only 2 start dates will be 867 and 1066, and considering the enormous political developments that gave rise to the Kingdoms of France, Germany, Burgundy, and Italy supplanting traditional kingdoms in the Frankish realm (Neustria, Austrasia, Aquitaine, Alamannia, Bavaria, Lombardy) and even the kingdoms carved out of the unified Carolingian Empire (West, East, and Middle; later Italy, Lotharingia, and Burgundy; later Cisjurane and Transjurane Burgundy), there should be plentiful series of events and mechanics to represent it.
Probably this is the important part of it
At first, these Dukes (sometimes also Margraves/Marquesses) or Margraves (in Tuscany, Verona, Vasconia, and Iberia) were more like royal governors and representatives of royal authority. The seigneurial rights and legal privileges of the landed nobility weren't nearly as developed as they were in the High Middle Ages (the period most are actually thinking of when they explain the hierarchy of feudal government and society in little detail).

Counts, too, originated as a title for royal governors, and they would govern both in county-tier "sub-realms" and Frisia.
That and using historical gau as the drawing board for counties in Germany... or, well, the ones we know of.

As it stands, a lot of the Carolingian stuff isn't or just can't really be represented in CK2, which is why I suggested using more events.
 
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The first paragraph.



That and using historical gau as the drawing board for counties in Germany... or, well, the ones we know of.

As it stands, a lot of the Carolingian stuff isn't or just can't really be represented in CK2, which is why I suggested using more events.
I mean like what kind of events? More events doesn't really mean much.

Like what kinds of event interactions are you looking for? I only see you describing how things were. Maybe I'm not understanding?
 
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Farfour

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I mean like what kind of events? More events doesn't really mean much.

Like what kinds of event interactions are you looking for? I only see you describing how things were. Maybe I'm not understanding?
For one, partition treaties instead of "unification wars".
 
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For one, partition treaties instead of "unification wars".
Oh that does seem like a good idea. Especially if they can implement it into their greater partition system. I saw mentioned just now that partition is the standard until the 1200's in ck3 so it seems like they're going to be very relevant for a long time.

I don't know how partition treaties could work with the ck3 casus beli system though. It's not like eu4 so you have to basically declare one single goal at the start of the war.

Maybe there could be a war to enforce de jure borders on your fellow partitioners to trade any loos counties between the two of you and enforce the dejure kingdoms? I guess if you combine that with claim wars for one title the other partitioners have at a time you could simulate some of the things you describe.

So maybe france and lothair would fight a partition war to trade all counties between lotharingie and france and enforce the de jure border? Then mr. german down in bavaria would fight a claim war for the de jure german territory and that would create the proper carolingian border seen in 867 right?
 
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I saw mentioned just now that partition is the standard until the 1200's in ck3 so it seems like they're going to be very relevant for a long time.
It's not like eu4 so you have to basically declare one single goal at the start of the war.
I really, really, have it out for both of these mechanics.
 
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  • The Showdown Effect
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
I really, really, have it out for both of these mechanics.
Oh I definitely agree! Seems if there'll be any changes it'll have to be after the release though :(

I don't know why paradox hates building on designs that work well in their other games.
 
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Reactions: Farfour and ArVass