Cardinals and Catholicism Seem Worthless

[SonofWinter]

Just wrapped up a Poland game. The Commonwealth controlled Catholics in most of Europe. But at most could have only 7 cardinals. So France and Spain had as many cardinals as the Commonwealth. A Commonwealth mind you with Catholic Istanbul, Catholic Danzig, Catholic Warszawa, Catholic Kiev, Catholic Moskva, Catholic Novgorod, Catholic Sopron (Hungary) Catholic Jerusalem, and Catholic Mecca. 7 is max, even if you control 3/4 of all major cities in Europe and beyond. I'm sorry but why should a 7 province France have 7 Cardinals while a 200 province Commonwealth have exactly the same 7 cardinals.

The other issue I had was that new conversion centers spawn in like 4 places per each Reformation. Austria and all of the HRE went Protestant due to this. And I did not touch them, they simply got overrun by the Reformation. Something is seriously wrong, when a Protestant center respawns in a new place, as soon as its done its damage and converted all provinces around it.

 

[atwix]

basically, the entire system makes papal controller random. Even an opm with 1 cardinal can become PC. Even a subject in a PU can become PC. Etc Etc.

Is it better then player being papal controller all the time after enough blobbing and coverting? I don't know. What i do know is that catholicism lost a lot of appeal for the human player.

 

[SonofWinter]

Yup, plus it doesn't make sense. After all, if Moskva, Kiev, Istanbul, Jerusalem and Mecca are Catholic, there should be some sort of a Catholic BONUS to the Crusader State who made it happen. After all, how much does the Pope really care about France and Spain when the Commonwealth provides 80% of the tithes. And really, any city with 10+ BT, should ALWAYS have a Cardinal and NEVER lose it. I mean how many Kievs and Danzigs are out there?

 

[Xinkc]

The other issue I had was that new conversion centers spawn in like 4 places per each Reformation. Austria and all of the HRE went Protestant due to this. And I did not touch them, they simply got overrun by the Reformation. Something is seriously wrong, when a Protestant center respawns in a new place, as soon as its done its damage and converted all provinces around it.

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. From my understanding/experience, Centers of Reformation work until about 1650 which sadly kills them off (would be nice to keep the conversion resistance). The Centers convert Catholic (and maybe Orthodox? I haven't paid attention over there) provinces around them first then choose random Catholic targets within a certain range. I haven't seen a Center of Reformation respawn but that seems like a bug. I destroyed one in London recently and no more popped up in its place. This was before 1650 in which I got a pop-up saying my Center was destroyed despite it still being Reformed.

 

[Kirikano]

I think maybe the influence required for papal actions and investing in controlling the pope should be increased, then give papal influence for each catholic province owned, with higher BT provinces giving more influence, and extra bonuses for owning stuff like Jerusalem, Mecca, Constantinople, Moscow, etc, then restrict how often you can use papal actions so you can't get infinite legitimacy/stab/prestige/manpower/whatever.

And when a subject nation controls the pope, their overlord should have the bonuses instead/as well. Its kinda hilarious in my game as the only independent catholic nation left in the game. DotF, and 200 relations with Papal States, and I haven't gotten the pope even once.

This way, larger nations can invest more into controlling the Pope without perma controll unless they are the only catholic nation left, but at the same time small nations still have a chance to control pope and use papal actions.

 

[Jahayya]

I'm sorry but why should a 7 province France have 7 Cardinals while a 200 province Commonwealth have exactly the same 7 cardinals.

You can extends to "why 250 catholic Inca non european provinces have exactly 0 cardinal?"

 

[spinoza013]

We need an improved espionage game with options to buy cardinals/influence etc. ( this is event fired just now but could be expanded upon)

 

[SonofWinter]

You can extends to "why 250 catholic Inca non european provinces have exactly 0 cardinal?"

Because they never had Cardinals, only Europeans "could" be Cardinals and only Europeans "could" be Pope. Things have changed in the last 200 years. But in the 1444-1821 time period, Cardinals were European and there is no negotiating on that point.

Remember that the Europeans were very bigoted. They might tolerate Cardinals from other European nations but not from the Colonies. To be a Cardinal, you first had to be a Bishop or an Archbishop. Which meant you were a nobleman, an European Nobleman, not some disgraced "riffraff" Don who got sent off to the Colonies to oversee the "savages."

We may think of bigotry as a lowbrow form of thought today but back then, it was the modus operandi.

The first non-European Cardinal (and I am including N. Africa and the Levant, in this) was an American in the 1840s I believe, although it might have been the 1860s.

 

[Nyrael]

Because they never had Cardinals, only Europeans "could" be Cardinals and only Europeans "could" be Pope. Things have changed in the last 200 years. But in the 1444-1821 time period, Cardinals were European and there is no negotiating on that point.

Remember that the Europeans were very bigoted. They might tolerate Cardinals from other European nations but not from the Colonies. To be a Cardinal, you first had to be a Bishop or an Archbishop. Which meant you were a nobleman, an European Nobleman, not some disgraced "riffraff" Don who got sent off to the Colonies to oversee the "savages."

Who gets to become a Cardinal was never tied to where you were from, but politics. The only reason that only Europeans were Cardinals was because, at the time, the colonies were nothing else but an extension of their European Motherland. But this ain't our history: if Mexico formed early in Americas and somehow became the richest state in the world, the Pope would happily appoint a Mexican as a Cardinal as long as Mexico is a Catholic state and he got a nice sack of gold. The whole European Exclusivity did not come until 19th century.
So there should be some decision or event that makes a powerful non-European Catholic state get the right to have Cardinals.

The thing is though that even with no Cardinals, the colonies were often far more loyal to the Catholic Church than the Europeans, so having all power lay in Cardinals is wrong. However, the Devs said that colonies will get a bonus in Papal Influence to simulate this so this part of the problem should be solved to some extent.

 

[Gulon]

The other issue I had was that new conversion centers spawn in like 4 places per each Reformation. Austria and all of the HRE went Protestant due to this. And I did not touch them, they simply got overrun by the Reformation. Something is seriously wrong, when a Protestant center respawns in a new place, as soon as its done its damage and converted all provinces around it.

About those centers of reformation... In my Savoy game a center of reformation formed in Switzerland. This center managed to convert Rome to reformed. And since Rome is a religious center with 12 base tax it was impossible for the Papal State to convert it back. This doesn't seem WAD to me.

 

[Lucavi]

About those centers of reformation... In my Savoy game a center of reformation formed in Switzerland. This center managed to convert Rome to reformed. And since Rome is a religious center with 12 base tax it was impossible for the Papal State to convert it back. This doesn't seem WAD to me.

Rome should be stuck with the Catholic religion (missionaries would be able to convert it), as it is a religious center, and it should convert the neighboring provinces to Catholic, because in every game I play, it and half of Italy turn into Reformed. It's starting to become annoying seeing the pope convert it many times untill the Centers of Reformation stop working.

 

[Path]

That's a problem with the way the centers work. They prefer converting provinces of OPMs (since doing so normally means the tag will switch religion), and northern Italy tends to be full of them.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

About those centers of reformation... In my Savoy game a center of reformation formed in Switzerland. This center managed to convert Rome to reformed. And since Rome is a religious center with 12 base tax it was impossible for the Papal State to convert it back. This doesn't seem WAD to me.

AI Papal State maybe. A Christian Rome should be easy for any Christian nation with religious ideas to convert as soon as cathedrals are available (technically, every faith in the game can convert a 12 tax Rome as long as it's Christian, though pagans w/o NIs will need policies). A Catholic nation can easily get 4% decisions, 5% idea group (heretic conversion idea applies), 2% base, and 3% cathedral and wind up with 14% conversion power in Rome, and this is before stability, inquisitors, forts, and events that boost strength further. Once zeal wears off, Papal State would only need 11% strength to convert it since neither reformation religion has extra resistance like Ortho/Shinto/Coptic/Islamic and Umbrian is primary culture. As a result, Papal State should in theory be able to convert it back easily once zeal wears off...I have actually converted it to animist while hostile culture (with great difficulty) and often convert it to eastern/Dharmic faiths because it's the only province in the game that gives non-Abrahamic faiths an extra missionary, and they don't have DotF either so it's a big deal for them if you want to spam a less typical religion.

Still, I agree that a center of reformation converting Rome itself feels awkward, and I am seeing it in a decent % of my games. If anything, Rome should be set as a center of counter-reformation or something.

 

[ChildeR]

Seven cardinals ought to be enough for anybody. Catholicism is hardly worthless, since even just the base influence + seven cardinals + decent relations with Papal States will give you frequent stability.

 

[Tacticus101]

I assumed that capped it at 7 cardinals because otherwise it would be too easy to just conquer all the territory and control the Curia for free.

 

[Makavcio]

Yep, it's a huge waste of time. After I vasalized Papal State (+200 relations), had 7 cardinals as Spain (bonuses) and spent all my influence on... influence, I was able to control the curia for a total of 5 years up to 1700 when I abandoned the game. Next time I'm investing everything in mercantilism and stability.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yep, it's a huge waste of time. After I vasalized Papal State (+200 relations), had 7 cardinals as Spain (bonuses) and spent all my influence on... influence, I was able to control the curia for a total of 5 years up to 1700 when I abandoned the game. Next time I'm investing everything in mercantilism and stability.

Unless going for the achievement I find it hard to go merc, especially as rich nations who will be FL capped with top advisors long before you get close. Even as Morocco I got to 2nd in world income inside 50 years with trade ideas. Castile can get first with eyes closed in Sevilla.

 

[Gulon]

AI Papal State maybe. A Christian Rome should be easy for any Christian nation with religious ideas to convert as soon as cathedrals are available (technically, every faith in the game can convert a 12 tax Rome as long as it's Christian, though pagans w/o NIs will need policies). A Catholic nation can easily get 4% decisions, 5% idea group (heretic conversion idea applies), 2% base, and 3% cathedral and wind up with 14% conversion power in Rome, and this is before stability, inquisitors, forts, and events that boost strength further. Once zeal wears off, Papal State would only need 11% strength to convert it since neither reformation religion has extra resistance like Ortho/Shinto/Coptic/Islamic and Umbrian is primary culture. As a result, Papal State should in theory be able to convert it back easily once zeal wears off...I have actually converted it to animist while hostile culture (with great difficulty) and often convert it to eastern/Dharmic faiths because it's the only province in the game that gives non-Abrahamic faiths an extra missionary, and they don't have DotF either so it's a big deal for them if you want to spam a less typical religion.

Still, I agree that a center of reformation converting Rome itself feels awkward, and I am seeing it in a decent % of my games. If anything, Rome should be set as a center of counter-reformation or something.

It's not that the AI Papal States couldn't (potentially) turn Rome back to Catholicism. They can. But it takes until the 17th century before that's possible. In my game Rome got converted around 1520. It's now 1600 and they're still reformed. Rome is the center of Catholicism and the game makes it harder to weed them out early by having a religious center there. It seems very cheap that a center of reformation can circumvent this by sniping the province and subsequently making it impossible to be converted back in any short amount of time. It's not hate on centers of reformation - I actually like them - but in this specific case it seems wrong.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah I agree. Even though with religious you can convert it back once zeal wears off Rome shouldn't easily flip religion like that.

 

[Kirikano]

Converting Rome with a center of reformation is as wrong as DDRJake converting Rome to animist with the force religion trick.