Capturable Equipment

[Alsadius]

The only HoI-ish way I can see to model this is to give "equipment" brigades(tanks, artillery, etc.) a capture chance just like ships have in HoI2. If you encircle a tank division, you might get its stuff. Depending on how shattering works, you could even say that you inherit the division in a shattered form, and have to rebuild it with your own manpower, but the equipment(i.e., division marker) comes free. You can't do it on the vehicle scale, but you can do it on the division scale, with some fudge factors to account for the fact that you don't capture everything. It might be good enough to implement, I'm really not sure, but it's the best I can think of.

 

[unmerged(110317)]

Like it has been suggested several times, a simple supplies gain to mimic captured equipment works out best, if nothing else.

Small gain if possible when enemy units retreat, and very importantly a good supplies gain when an enemy unit is encircled and captured.

It makes no sense to completely ignore Captured equipment and for that matter obsolete equipment, it just has to be represented in whatever form in HOI 3, it just has to.

 

[AndersT]

War reparations

Like it has been suggested several times, a simple supplies gain to mimic captured equipment works out best, if nothing else...

I feel that only gaining a handfull of supplies don't come close to modeling what happens when you annex another country.

The best way to illustrate that is to look at what happened in Germany when they surrendered. The russians dismantled a significant ammount of the industry in the eastern provinces and moved them to Russia propper, vast mountains of ammunitions were distributed amongst the allies, guns, ships and tanks were transfered from the Wehrmacht to other armies and so on. At one time France fielded the 503rd Tank Battalion in Mourmelon that had 50 Panthers in 1947 and 501rd Tank Battalion used Panthers from 1946 to 1950.

In Norway we equiped most of the Homeguards with captured WH equipment, and as late as 2000 I was attending a liveex where we used german made mortarshells from 1943. We even gained some Pz III, STUG III and several type 9 subs, not to mention the whole range of FlaK from 20mm and upwards to 128mm.

So in all fairness; once you annex a country you ought to gain a portion of that countrys warmaterials as well, perhaps as str 10 pz-divisions or subs, or free brigades to add to your existing units in addition to some money and supplies. After all, the country you just have taken over has been stockpiling some resourses and not all of it would have been destroyed beyond repair on the battlefield.

 

[Peekee]

So in all fairness; once you annex a country you ought to gain a portion of that countrys warmaterials as well, perhaps as str 10 pz-divisions or subs, or free brigades to add to your existing units in addition to some money and supplies. After all, the country you just have taken over has been stockpiling some resourses and not all of it would have been destroyed beyond repair on the battlefield.

This should not apply to all circumstances. Possibly only if the side being annexed has a good reason to give the victors supplies. E.g. Germany because they are worried about Soviets. If Germany annexes countries though they would be more likely to try and give their supplies to the allies (or soviets) and have a government in exile rather than let the Germans have them.

 

[AndersT]

I have a hard time beliving that for instance Republican Spain in the event of beeing overrun by the germans would use all its transportcapacity (cargoships) to ferry rifles, ammo, guns and tanks out of Spain to UK instead of ferrying refugees.

I'd be crossed as Hell if I was on the docks of Cadiz and didn't get a ship out of port because the government needed the space to carry useless 7x52mm Spanish Mauser rounds to England.

Its not a question of been given the chance to surrender the materials, its a matter of one guy with a gun telling another guy without a gun to surrender his goods.

 

[unmerged(135152)]

You people are really missing the point here, let me repeat it:

---> ABSTRACTION!!! <---

When you conquer a country, you don't use MP/IC/resources/money/unicorns to set up the puppet regime, to reorganize the police, to introduce your laws, to re-establish garrisons, to build depots, to make the railroads and roadnetworks compatible with your equipment, to introduce your currency to the nation, and so on and so on and so on.

If you conquer a country you would lose 20IC a month over the next year and at the time of annexation you would get roughly 240IC as "spoils of war". Now, for those of you whose strong suit isn't algebra, let me help you out on this one:

20*12 - 240 = 0

You can not expect every single isolated event of history or reality to be portrayed in the game. You can, however, to expect a GRAND STRATEGY GAME to portray all events that are meaningful for the scope. Bill from second battalion doesn't fit the bill, nor does capturing a handful of hopelessly obsolete equipment and a few rounds of non-standard ammo.

 

[unmerged(54763)]

Fact is that Germany captured massive amounts of equipement from Allies after the fall of France.
OKW decision to rise number of armoured divisions from 10 to 20 resulted that many of captured tanks(French Somua most notably) ended in composition of newly formed panzer divisions.Allso towsands of trucks were quickly incorporated.
This isolated case had significant strategical importance in ww2,and if possibly I would like to be somehow implemented.

 

[PIT_AMERO]

Referring to the US 83rd Infantry Division, known as the "Rag-Tag Circus" as it "motorized" itself from captured German equipment in the final stages of the war.

A quick google came up with this:

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-today/2524...r-1945-rag-tag-circus-dash-toward-berlin.html

Yeah, but that was just a temporary solutions (12 days). And they didn't "motorized" themselves with the new equipment; they just decided to use some german trucks so that they shouldn't stop for repairing and maintenance.


Such things occurred, but I don't think that they were so important (except for Germany and the minors).
I think that the capturing of the supplies in the depots will be sufficient.

 

[Cardus]

Fact is that Germany captured massive amounts of equipement from Allies after the fall of France.
OKW decision to rise number of armoured divisions from 10 to 20 resulted that many of captured tanks(French Somua most notably) ended in composition of newly formed panzer divisions.Allso towsands of trucks were quickly incorporated.
This isolated case had significant strategical importance in ww2,and if possibly I would like to be somehow implemented.

Something like that happened after the fall of Italy. The Werchmacht deposits received a lot of stuff...

 

[gigzoid]

Yeah, but that was just a temporary solutions (12 days). And they didn't "motorized" themselves with the new equipment; they just decided to use some german trucks so that they shouldn't stop for repairing and maintenance.

But can you prove it, 'cause I don't believe that for the US division.

I can understand why men and equipment are melded into one within HOI - otherwise would need a Vicky like solution of allocating equipment from a stockpile and therefore a whole new area of micro management. The licensing of tech is a neat work around to this "limitation".

However, Rag-Tag Circus aside, use of captured equipment was widespread by all sides and is a shame that this looks like it can only be modelled by work arounds (events etc ..) rather than something formally built in.

 

[unmerged(110317)]

But we can still have hope that PI is listening and planning to do somethin about it. Pray people Pray

 

[PIT_AMERO]

But can you prove it, 'cause I don't believe that for the US division.

I can understand why men and equipment are melded into one within HOI - otherwise would need a Vicky like solution of allocating equipment from a stockpile and therefore a whole new area of micro management. The licensing of tech is a neat work around to this "limitation".

However, Rag-Tag Circus aside, use of captured equipment was widespread by all sides and is a shame that this looks like it can only be modelled by work arounds (events etc ..) rather than something formally built in.

You tried to present that case as something big which is showing how crucial was the capturing of enemies' equipment, even for the US.
You presented it as US fielded a whole division only thanks to the captured foreign equipment, which isn't true.
For that reason I asked you for a prove.

Yes, foreign built equipment was used by all, but it wasn't something so important (except for Germany and the minors; and except for intel reasons) to deserve a complex new system to represent it.
I think that the capturing of the supplies in the enemies' depots is enough.

 

[SuperKyle]

I'd be satisfied with just the capture of resources at depots if the brigade thing is too hard to implement.

After all, the whole reason for the last major german offensive of the war was to capture oil reserves!

 

[unmerged(134661)]

Well, in HoI3 we have resource depots I believe. It's completely logical that an enemy could capture those depots.

From what I've seen of HoI3, there is nothing modeling personnel seperate from equipment. Thus, the notion of specifically modelling capture of equipment would be challenging.

An abstraction of divisions that are annihilated (beaten when surrounded and disappearing) giving some supplies would be a good approach (like 100 supplies per division). After all, if you capture supplies, you don't need to manufacture them as much so your IC is free to make new units or upgrade existing ones. You get to the right place without the micro hell presented by trying to model every piece of equipment.

 

[Cardus]

Well, in HoI3 we have resource depots I believe. It's completely logical that an enemy could capture those depots.

From what I've seen of HoI3, there is nothing modeling personnel seperate from equipment. Thus, the notion of specifically modelling capture of equipment would be challenging.

An abstraction of divisions that are annihilated (beaten when surrounded and disappearing) giving some supplies would be a good approach (like 100 supplies per division). After all, if you capture supplies, you don't need to manufacture them as much so your IC is free to make new units or upgrade existing ones. You get to the right place without the micro hell presented by trying to model every piece of equipment.

This is my idea as well. Get the point without micromanagement/microworries

 

[zeekater]

About the system of 'gaining' brigades of equipment:

most equipment that got captured was only used until it broke down or ran out of ammo (with a few notable exceptions, like the 76mm field gun from the russians). So getting a 'T34 brigade' as the Germans isn't realistic.

As been said numerous times already, the capturing of supplies should be enough to simulate this

 

[unmerged(136038)]

As been said numerous times already, the capturing of supplies should be enough to simulate this

Yep considering in rl its more likely to find guns and ammo instead of capturable tanks which they usually tried to destroy anyways.