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SuperKyle

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I'm sorry if this has been brought up before, but I've never seen it mentioned, yet it's a huge part of WW2. Capturable & modifiable equipment.

for example, germany, modifying czech tanks, or using french tanks for occupation...

I know that HOI is done at the divisional & brigade level, but I was wondering if HoI3 had any plans to implement a sort of capturable brigade of all types that is a % chance if its blitzed fast enough..or something like that. That'd be really cool. Maybe if it was weaker too, or something, so it wouldn't be overpowered.

Germany wasn't nearly as strong as hoi2 makes it out to be, germany had to borrow a lot of equipment in order to win its battles.
 

torenico

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Hmm, no.

Why?

Because when the Germans captured the French Tanks, they would brak down, and the germans could not "trade" parts whit the French goverment because.. duh..

Maybe not maybe yes, but making an captured tank of your own tanks would require research, making all the parts to be built in Germany.

And also, why would you use a H38 when you got Tigers :p
 
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Hmm, no.

Why?

Because when the Germans captured the French Tanks, they would brak down, and the germans could not "trade" parts whit the French goverment because.. duh..

Maybe not maybe yes, but making an captured tank of your own tanks would require research, making all the parts to be built in Germany.

And also, why would you use a H38 when you got Tigers :p

Actually, you may want to do some more research on this topic. The Germans used great quantities of captured guns, firearms, vehicles and even some tanks. It has been discussed at length in these forums many times before.

The game has a hard time with this because it does not track equipment quantities. Other games have done so successfully, but not the HOI series.

Personally, I hope that the future versions of the game allow us to produce, and quantify individual items like tanks, trucks, aircraft, etc and that we can then issue them to units and capture or exchange them with other countries.
 

semaphore

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I guess this could be appropriately abstracted out by reduced building costs and/or suppplies. As it is, I doubt that the engine can simulate capturered equipment without significant work.

Would be nice to see in HoI 4 though :)
 

unmerged(28220)

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Maybe a strength and supples boost?

So when you defeat a division on the field you get a 1-2 point strength boost and a certain amount of supplies to simulate captured equipment. The strength boost would be nominal just to simulate replacing that destroyed German truck with a captured Soviet one but the supplies boost could be based on a percentage of the supply the defeated division had so it could be nominal if the division is a worn out and beaten one or substantial if it is a fresh division.
 

unmerged(31881)

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To what extent ought this to be modelled though? A good portion would be reflected in the capture of enemy capitals. Some generic supplies if an encircled area contains a logistics hub would be about the only feasible way i see. So a little higher abstraction extraction than directly using equipment per se.

i mean, people already reload when von Manstein randomly dies. How would they react if their Operation Barbarossa grinds to a halt because they've been running seventy different truck types stolen from all across Europe?

Some generic supplies i can see. But specific equipment is a bit too close in detail. Even though i'd love to particuliarize divisions with particular types, e.g. SVT-40, PPSh, PTR-D, ZiS-3. That will probably have to wait until Paradox can include that sort of detail without making all non-micro-grognards wade through the dreaded Spreadsheets of Iron.
 

Devout

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If you are going to toss in special events that develop from combat, you could toss in such things as (1) research boost from stolen equipment, (2) unit org/strength boost from stolen equipment, (3) national unity +/- from great battles, (4) special leader events for won/lost battles, (5) some type of national prestige that affects foreign relations for won/lost great battles. etc.

Seems like a good idea for HOI4.
 

unmerged(131989)

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If the unit was more advanced, or if your army was desperately lacking certain things, I would expect this to be a reasonable thing to have been done. I think it would be quite hard to do in-game though...
 

PIT_AMERO

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It may be included, but I don't think that it's so important.
I mean, besides the germans are there any other examples of great usege of captured equipment by a "big player"?
Besides for intel or for the coastal defense of the Egypt or Indian coast?

It's a nice (and realistical) feature to have, but is it worth the work?
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_38

"The Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) was a Czechoslovakian tank used by Germany during World War II. --- After the German takeover, Germany ordered continued production of the model, as it was considered an excellent tank, especially compared to the Panzer I and Panzer II tanks that were the Panzerwaffe's main tanks."

That's one reality. However the question you need to ask yourself is whether or not it will work in the big picture. The T-34 was by far superior to any German tank in 41/42. Consequently the Germans had their way with the Panthers and whatnot (Basically needlessly expensive copies). But the fact is that once they encountered the tank, they had to do research into it and come up with something to take it out. They didn't just capture it and start making their own (Which is what they most likely should have done). The fact is that, no matter what all the nazi-fanboys tell you, the single best German tanks (Panzer 38, Panther, Tiger) were actually innovations of Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union respectively. The design of the "original" German tanks of Panzer I, II and III were by far inferior. The Germans had very little understanding for the concept of tanks when used in fighting other tanks and not racing through Poland with the Stukas flying over them.

As such you either have to go with:

A. The Germans are unable to make any decent tanks until they meet the Russians.
B. Understand that the tech system is an abstraction of everything from learning about the designs of your enemy to setting up production lines.

I'll rather take B. There are very few "original innovations" in world war two. Almost everything was made to counter the threat of X, to further improve Y or, with the Germans, make a needlesly expensive copy of Z. And since the tech system is in no way realistic, historical or making sense form a point of logic and realism (It is balanced, fun-to-play and whatnot, though) it makes very little to no sense, at least for me, to incorporate individual aspects of reality to a system that is so abstracted.


EDIT: Seems like misread the OP, as he was simply suggesting that divisions/brigades could be captured and not that they would enhance your production or research (Although I've read that idea being suggested somewhere, as well). In any case being able to capture entire divisions and brigades would be quite pointless, since you can not utilize the captured equipment in the same way that you can with your own. Not only is there a supply problem, but quite often there were issues with doctrines which made the process painfully slow and quite often fruitless. And in addition I see no justification for a Soviet attack capturing and fully utilizing German military police brigades or infantry divisions. Usually using enemy materiel was something to be done on a operational level, not a strategical one (Like with the Finnish capturing a few Soviet tanks and using them, or the British using a few captured Flaks for anti tank duty or whanot). A few scattered guns don't make a brigade or a division.
 
Last edited:

gigzoid

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Certainly the case that captured equipment important for all sides in the war - a whole US division turned itself into an armoured division in 45 using German equipment, as well German and Soviet use of captured stuff.

I think the main issue is that manpower is still tied to equipment in HOI3, a design decision which its almost certainly too late to revise, whatever the pros and cons of doing so.

As such, I'm pretty sure that there can be no autonomous pool of equipment, captured or not, which can be allocated on spec.
 

Biges

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Well, as for the Czech tanks etc., this can be solved via a special event.
As for the other... spoils of war... maybe some additional supplies from destroying enemy divisions? But this would have to be a modable modifier. (As a percentage of the div value?)
 

unmerged(134661)

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I think this brings up one of the great drivers of arguments.

Camp A - States that X happened in WWII (even if it's peripheral)
Camp B - States that it was not crtical enough or that it's too small scale to model.


I think I'm with Camp B. Yes, equipment was captured and infrequently it was used. However, I'd rate this lower than simply getting the engine perfect for land, sea and air combat.

An abstraction of adding supplies would be an easier way of including it but I'm not sure it's a critical feature.
 
Last edited:

Cardus

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I think this brings up one of the great drivers of arguments.

Camp A - States that X happened in WWII (even if it's peripheral)
Camp B - States that it was not crtical enough or that it's too small scale to model.


I think I'm with Camp B. Yes, equipment was captured and infrequently it was used. However, I'd rate this lower than simply getting the engine perfect for land, sea and air combat.

An abstraction of adding supplies would be an easier way of including it.

It was important from a tactical point of view so some supplies. In some case it was important to boost the research or to open new frontiers in the research. This is the case of rocket artillery for example: Germans just copied it from Soviets. In other cases when a country is conquered (like Germany did with Czechoslovakia, USA with GER, etc.) it's likely that the conqueror gets the know how (practical and theoretical) plus the factories (if they are not destroyed).
 

unmerged(134661)

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It was important from a tactical point of view so some supplies. In some case it was important to boost the research or to open new frontiers in the research. This is the case of rocket artillery for example: Germans just copied it from Soviets. In other cases when a country is conquered (like Germany did with Czechoslovakia, USA with GER, etc.) it's likely that the conqueror gets the know how (practical and theoretical) plus the factories (if they are not destroyed).

The notion of annexed countries providing a small boost in theoretical reasearch where they were further ahead makes sense. The factories are obviously already captured as that's part of the IC.
 

Cardus

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The notion of annexed countries providing a small boost in theoretical reasearch where they were further ahead makes sense. The factories are obviously already captured as that's part of the IC.

True, but one matter is to capture factories that make butter another matter is to capture factories that have skilled workers, equipments, etc. in producing something that your country never researched for...
 

unmerged(134661)

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True, but one matter is to capture factories that make butter another matter is to capture factories that have skilled workers, equipments, etc. in producing something that your country never researched for...

Way beyond the scope of the game in my opinion. The game abstracts IC and there's nothing in the DDs that makes me think that's going to change nor do I think it's incredibly relevant.

Yes, butter is a silly idea but most countries have companies that produce products like guns, cars, aircraft and construction equipment. Many of these things are somewhat transferrable and if you look at WWII manufacturers in the US, they showed they could make the switch. IC obtained via annex or occupation suffers a penalty to capture this.

Additional realism doesn't always make an inherently better game.
 

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EDIT: Seems like misread the OP, as he was simply suggesting that divisions/brigades could be captured and not that they would enhance your production or research (Although I've read that idea being suggested somewhere, as well). In any case being able to capture entire divisions and brigades would be quite pointless, since you can not utilize the captured equipment in the same way that you can with your own. Not only is there a supply problem, but quite often there were issues with doctrines which made the process painfully slow and quite often fruitless. And in addition I see no justification for a Soviet attack capturing and fully utilizing German military police brigades or infantry divisions. Usually using enemy materiel was something to be done on a operational level, not a strategical one (Like with the Finnish capturing a few Soviet tanks and using them, or the British using a few captured Flaks for anti tank duty or whanot). A few scattered guns don't make a brigade or a division.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captured_German_equipment_in_Soviet_use_on_the_Eastern_front
 

Cardus

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Way beyond the scope of the game in my opinion. The game abstracts IC and there's nothing in the DDs that makes me think that's going to change nor do I think it's incredibly relevant.

Yes, butter is a silly idea but most countries have companies that produce products like guns, cars, aircraft and construction equipment. Many of these things are somewhat transferrable and if you look at WWII manufacturers in the US, they showed they could make the switch. IC obtained via annex or occupation suffers a penalty to capture this.

Additional realism doesn't always make an inherently better game.


Please find below my proposal:
1) Battle won implies some material i.e. some supplies for the winner
2) Encirclement and destroying implies
2.1) for the winner some material i.e. some supplies + some leadership increase (you likely captured some leaders)
2.2) for the looser some leadership reduction
3) Annex a country implies for the winner some material i.e. supplies, depots, IC, etc + some leadership increase (you likely captured many leaders)

Please let me know your thoughts