Capitalists NEED to build their own factories

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dunka2

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Setting aside the “capitalists vs player decision making argument”, I want to see the AI be at least somewhat competent at building factories/managing the economy for the sake of the AI controlled nations above all else..

Sometimes? More like most of the time. IRL survival of the fittest means that inefficient/ineffective businesses fail, leaving the better businesses to take over their market share, where as a planned economy would see those inefficient enterprises persist regardless. Meaning that over time the free market economy would surpass the planned economy in pretty much every way(see the West vs Warsaw Pact through out the Cold War).

In game however it just didn’t work very well, with huge unemployment, many factories closing down and clogging your states factory slots, and the ones that do okay only doing so through happenstance, and they RARELY chose to build a factory that actually suited a given state. It’s almost like they were programmed to AVOID building factories that would benefit from local resource production.
The issue of factory placement is because when the game launched, there was no bonus to a steel factory being built in a state with iron and coal. Accordingly the capitalists' AI was never programmed to take that into account (and never subsequently updated either).

And if states did not have an arbitrary limit to factories, then there would be no issue if a capitalist built a dud factory. It would just close down and eventually get deleted. That was the real problem with capitalists and laissez faire in the game.
 
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It's like picking a democratic government and wanting to choose who wins "Because this is a game", and then also being allowed to pass any laws with said government even though it makes no sense.

Well I would definitelly be in favour of being able to choose who wins if the AI was so stupid that it elected socialists despite being the voters fascists.

I would have no problem with the AI handling the economics if it was remotely close to human intelligence (making mistakes and being able to learn from them). The problem of the AI is that its so terrible it doesnt resemble any human economic agent at all. The goodness of capitalism is supposed to be that it recognizes mistakes (aka bad investments), learns from it, and turns it into good investments. The Vicky2 AI just keeps throwing money at the same bad investment during 150 of gameplay. Its uterly stupid and I personally dont want my economy wreck like that. But as I said, I have no problem with the devs adding an optionto give control of the economy to the AI for those who want to roleplay at the expense of losing a shitone of money while I am more efficient in a socialist system (personally I think its ridiculous, but hey each to their own). So yea, its really easy, a win win for both parties. No need to argue really. You're not making interventionist decision. Its an abstraction of you in the skin of the capitalists making the decisions, represented through the investment pool, which is disconnected from the state pool. So you cannot really use it for whatever you want like an interventionist country.
 
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It was the repeated failure, game after game, that became the source of frustration. Having your cappies build fuel refineries in every state despite being five spots away from the lowest ranked nation with access to oil gets tired quickly. See also: luxury furniture and lack of tropical wood, luxury clothes and the lack of silk, liquor and the lack of glass, wine when there is a level 27 winery in some Italian minor, etc
Okay. What does that have to do with anything?
 
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dunka2

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Well I would definitelly be in favour of being able to choose who wins if the AI was so stupid that it elected socialists despite being the voters fascists.

I would have no problem with the AI handling the economics if it was remotely close to human intelligence (making mistakes and being able to learn from them). The problem of the AI is that its so terrible it doesnt resemble any human economic agent at all. The goodness of capitalism is supposed to be that it recognizes mistakes (aka bad investments), learns from it, and turns it into good investments. The Vicky2 AI just keeps throwing money at the same bad investment during 150 of gameplay. Its uterly stupid and I personally dont want my economy wreck like that. But as I said, I have no problem with the devs adding an optionto give control of the economy to the AI for those who want to roleplay at the expense of losing a shitone of money while I am more efficient in a socialist system (personally I think its ridiculous, but hey each to their own). So yea, its really easy, a win win for both parties. No need to argue really.
Capitalism 'learns' on a macro level. Individual actors still make poor judgments and decisions. I think we need only look at Gamestop and the silliness surrounding that for an example of truly societal level poor decision making in the economy.
 
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cristofolmc

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Okay. What does that have to do with anything?
¿?¿?¿?¿? What do you mean what does it has to do with anything? Its what the AI capitalist controlled laissez fair economy does! We are saying we dont want to go through that stupidity again. And no, you are saying we have to put up with capitalist investing on industries they know you dont have access to because potato. xd
 
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Capitalism 'learns' on a macro level. Individual actors still make poor judgments and decisions. I think we need only look at Gamestop and the silliness surrounding that for an example of truly societal level poor decision making in the economy.
Yeah, again, I know, its a game, its also macro. Dont worry, no Vicky capitalist is gonna be investing in gamestop, they all act as groups (POPs) in the same way, taking into consideration macro indicator. Its not the sims xd
 

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¿?¿?¿?¿? What do you mean what does it has to do with anything? Its what the AI capitalist controlled laissez fair economy does! We are saying we dont want to go through that stupidity again. And no, you are saying we have to put up with capitalist investing on industries they know you dont have access to because potato. xd
Remember that false dichotomy thing? That's what the AI did in a different game 10 years ago and you're pretending that that's how it's going to work in this game.
 
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acidsun

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Well I would definitelly be in favour of being able to choose who wins if the AI was so stupid that it elected socialists despite being the voters fascists.

I would have no problem with the AI handling the economics if it was remotely close to human intelligence (making mistakes and being able to learn from them). The problem of the AI is that its so terrible it doesnt resemble any human economic agent at all. The goodness of capitalism is supposed to be that it recognizes mistakes (aka bad investments), learns from it, and turns it into good investments. The Vicky2 AI just keeps throwing money at the same bad investment during 150 of gameplay. Its uterly stupid and I personally dont want my economy wreck like that. But as I said, I have no problem with the devs adding an optionto give control of the economy to the AI for those who want to roleplay at the expense of losing a shitone of money while I am more efficient in a socialist system (personally I think its ridiculous, but hey each to their own). So yea, its really easy, a win win for both parties. No need to argue really.

This argument invalidates the whole game, because if you think the AI is so bad it can't run an economy at least decently, every AI of the game will be so flawed it makes no sense to play the game against it.

Also I'm not arguing that AI-controlled laissez faire should be an option. It should be a restriction. You shouldn't be able to have a liberal government and expect to be able to plan an entire industrial economy without anyone diverging from your centralised decision.

In my Vic2 games, capitalists were bad at setting up industries when you had poor technology and few options. Which is what happened in history, where no capitalist class managed to create a competitive industry from scratch without government support. If your liberalised after having a competitive economy, they managed to thrive quite well. Might be mods, but still it was doable years ago. I'm sure they are able to do better right now.

Or else, as I said, the game won't be any fun since the AIs of other nations will only make bad decisions and the game will be easy. Since it will be the same AI.
 
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Yes, sure, tell the players with tooltips that laissez fair is going to be less efficient than socialism. That surely will make it fun. And it makes it very realistic too, right?! Buth hey, its part of real life capitalism, capitalist investing continually in the same industries despite them not being profitable, again and again, sinking millions down the drain!
That's not what I've said and it's not true, not even in Vicky 2. If you play as a large nation you will find that as the game progresses, it's more and more difficult to efficiently micromanage your factories. At that point LF will be more efficient, as even it's stupid capitalists will hit the mark occasionally and the failing factories will get weeded out, resulting in a overall profitable economy. What the game should communicate are things like there is nothing wrong with seeing unprofitable factories being built or that it's completely natural to see a minor economic collapse after switching from a command economy to a profit based one. Even with these, the system can be efficient.
Surely, the AI will be tones better. But still, nowhere near as good as a human player, based on ALL the other PDX titles, old and new. Sorry, thats just a fact.
If you believe that the AI has no chance of even coming close to competing with the player then you might as well admit that the entire promise of the game is pointless, considering all other nations are run by the AI.
And Vicky is not a simulation program. It's a game. I'm an enemy of player agency in most cases and I do want things to happen organically and on their own. But not when it comes to hand over the AI the main feature of a game, where you cannot do anything about it becuase its laissez fair. Again, its a game. Im more than fine thinking that the capitalists are making the most economical beneficial decision even though its me with the mouse. If I want to simulate bad economic managment in a socialist country, I'll go laissez fair and hand over the rains of my economy to the AI.
Yes it's a game. A game is a set of challenges and the tools to solve them. LF is just that, a challenge: You have to run your economy without direct intervention. What causes players frustration is that they don't realize that the tools are there too and therefore they think the challenge is unsolvable. The tools are all the ways you can indirectly affect your economy. Even V2 has them and it seems like V3 will have even more of them. The only problem here is that the game doesn't explain how it is possible to use them, which should be easily fixable.
 
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This argument invalidates the whole game, because if you think the AI is so bad it can't run an economy at least decently, every AI of the game will be so flawed it makes no sense to play the game against it.

Well yes, so far there hasnt been a PDX game that beats a human player on economic management. That doesnt mean it invalidates their whole game. There are other challenges. What they lack on economy they make up on alliances, or size, or bonuses from conent, or whatever. Doesnt mean I want my economy handled by the AI xd. So yes, we will be better at managing the economy than the rest of the AI, doesnt mean vicky3 wont be great to play. Just as the human is also always better at diplomacy. Doesnt mean the game is not fun any more. Doesnt mean either that I want to hand over the control of the diplomacy the AI to represent a democratic government in which the diplomacy is managed by the foreign affairs minister xd.

So yes, I dont see the problem with it being an option for the player. It worked in Imperator Rome. If you wanted to roleplay that the general had actual control of the army (I mean realistically the leader of a nation wouldnt be able to control 4 armies at the same time! How proposterous to allow the player to control them! How unrealistic!), you could give control of that army to the AI. In most cases had disasterous consequences (hence why I dont want the AI having control of my economy in Vicky 3 even if I play as a liberal economy), but hey, you had the option if you wanted to roleplay! (and we are talking about a new gen PDX game, with one of the best PDX AIs, so yeah, my confidence on the Vicky3 AI is minimal).
 
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I absolutly hated laissez-faire in vicky2. I get it historicly accurate, but what is the reason to play an economic simulator without actually playing the game?

There is still a game to be played outside of micromanaging every single factory. War, diplomacy, taxation, fiscal spending, regulation, internal laws etc.
 
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Well yes, so far there hasnt been a PDX game that beats a human player on economic management. That doesnt mean it invalidates their whole game. There are other challenges. What they lack on economy they make up on alliances, or size, or bonuses from conent, or whatever. Doesnt mean I want my economy handled by the AI xd. So yes, we will be better at managing the economy than the rest of the AI, doesnt mean vicky3 wont be great to play. Just as the human is also always better at diplomacy. Doesnt mean the game is not fun any more. Doesnt mean either that I want to hand over the control of the diplomacy the AI to represent a democratic government in which the diplomacy is managed by the foreign affairs minister xd.

So yes, I dont see the problem with it being an option for the player. It worked in Imperator Rome. If you wanted to roleplay that the general had actual control of the army (I mean realistically the leader of a nation wouldnt be able to control 4 armies at the same time! How proposterous to allow the player to control them! How unrealistic!), you could give control of that army to the AI. In most cases had disasterous consequences (hence why I dont want the AI having control of my economy in Vicky 3 even if I play as a liberal economy), but hey, you had the option if you wanted to roleplay! (and we are talking about a new gen PDX game, with one of the best PDX AIs, so yeah, my confidence on the Vicky3 AI is minimal).

Your arguments either support what I said, or depend on exaggerations of what I've said.

If it's ok for the human to be better than the AI, and it won't ruin the game, so let the AI have more control of the eeconomy on laissez faire governments than the player.

It's not about realism. It's about somehow simulating in a game the ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE between a laissez faire and a planned economy.
The WHOLE GAME is based on AIs making decentralized economic decisions. Pops will buy goods. Promote or not. Migrate. Change ideology. Vote. Elect Governments. Revolt or not. All of this in an imperfect manner since it will be an AI controlling it. And when it comes to building factories you'll tell me it's a bad idea because the AI may fail? What would be the downside of a liberal government in this case, then? Since you ignore the only bad aspect of it which is not being able to plan an economy (Which can be good in many situations)?

Its this imperfection that actually simulates the downside of decentralised decisions. Capitalists doing business on their own should have pros and cons. Designing the game so that the MAIN DIFFERENCE between liberal and interventionist economic policies doesn't simply vanish.

All of your analogies refer to very different situations. For instance, one person can't command 4 armies, but 4 armies being coordinated by centralised decision maker acting on strategy and not on the self-interest of hundreds of individuals isn't as absurd as a free market economy being coordinated by a centralised decision maker acting on the basis of strategy and not on the self-interest of hundreds of individuals.

It seems to me you just want the game to adapt to your ideology, where fully liberal governments inevitably result in a good economy whatever the context in which they are elected and the economic setting of the country they rule.

They don't. Historically they are bad at developing a country from an early stage. Good at optimizing countries that are already advanced econmies. The best way to simulate this is having capitalist make bad decisions at earlier stages
 
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Neva115

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Your arguments either support what I said, or depend on exaggerations of what I've said.

If it's ok for the human to be better than the AI, and it won't ruin the game, so let the AI have more control of the eeconomy on laissez faire governments than the player.

It's not about realism. It's about somehow simulating in a game the ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE between a laissez faire and a planned economy.
The WHOLE GAME is based on AIs making decentralized economic decisions. Pops will buy goods. Promote or not. Migrate. Change ideology. Vote. Elect Governments. Revolt or not. All of this in an imperfect manner since it will be an AI controlling it. And when it comes to building factories you'll tell me it's a bad idea because the AI may fail? What would be the downside of a liberal government in this case, then? Since you ignore the only bad aspect of it which is not being able to plan an economy (Which can be good in many situations)?

Its this imperfection that actually simulates the downside of decentralised decisions. Capitalists doing business on their own should have pros and cons. Designing the game so that the MAIN DIFFERENCE between liberal and interventionist economic policies doesn't simply vanish.

All of your analogies refer to very different situations. For instance, one person can't command 4 armies, but 4 armies being coordinated by centralised decision maker acting on strategy and not on the self-interest of hundreds of individuals isn't as absurd as a free market economy being coordinated by a centralised decision maker acting on the basis of strategy and not on the self-interest of hundreds of individuals.

It seems to me you just want the game to adapt to your ideology, where fully liberal governments inevitably result in a good economy whatever the context in which they are elected and the economic setting of the country they rule.

They don't. Historically they are bad at developing a country from an early stage. Good at optimizing countries that are already advanced econmies. The best way to simulate this is having capitalist make bad decisions at earlier stages
I agree with all your points, but I think admittedly the man just simply always wants to micro his eco regardless of historical accuracy, and it's not about "wanting the game to adapt to his ideology." But I very much agree with all your points on the topic :)
 
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Ratgar

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Strictly from a game design standpoint, if they don't make the AI good enough at choosing which factories to make, they are going two have two pretty critical flaws:

1) The human player isn't going to have fun because they will be competing against AI's that all are critically hamstrung. This was easy to see in Vicky 2 where you rush state capitalism. Even if every AI was on state capitalism, the game is still going to choose factories for them in the same way.

2) The late game is going to be either very tedious managing a bunch of factories, or far worse they will have entirely removed the ability to make a lot of factories at all, and they will exist more closely to something like buildings in EU4.

So if they are going to make AI good enough at choosing them for non-player countries, they might as well remove the limitation and allow AI control of player ones too in certain circumstances. This really should be instead a discussion of how they are going to improve the AI's ability to choose wise investments. Even giving just some minimal extra calculus to the decision tree one could see how it could be improved if they wanted to from Vicky 2's mainly agnostic approach.
 
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EUnderhill

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Strictly from a game design standpoint, if they don't make the AI good enough at choosing which factories to make, they are going two have two pretty critical flaws:

1) The human player isn't going to have fun because they will be competing against AI's that all are critically hamstrung. This was easy to see in Vicky 2 where you rush state capitalism. Even if every AI was on state capitalism, the game is still going to choose factories for them in the same way.

2) The late game is going to be either very tedious managing a bunch of factories, or far worse they will have entirely removed the ability to make a lot of factories at all, and they will exist more closely to something like buildings in EU4.

So if they are going to make AI good enough at choosing them for non-player countries, they might as well remove the limitation and allow AI control of player ones too in certain circumstances. This really should be instead a discussion of how they are going to improve the AI's ability to choose wise investments. Even giving just some minimal extra calculus to the decision tree one could see how it could be improved if they wanted to from Vicky 2's mainly agnostic approach.
I modded the starting setup to give each country the factories I would put in had I rushed state capitalism...and then of course see them fail and get replaced by luxury furniture despite a lack of inputs.
 
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Call Me Vandal

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Capitalists in Vic2 were a very compelling idea. I do want them back in some shape or form, because capitalism is not economic planning.

It looks like fun to manage the economy, but at some point (Great powers manage hundreds of factories...) there has to be a way to automate this stuff. Preferably you can lay down rules as a government for the AI to execute on your behalf, both in state and market economies.

Market economy ideas:
  • Unleash the Capitalists! Allow Capitalists to spend the Investment Pool to open factories and build infrastructure like in Vic2
  • An Incentives screen where you can offer Dividends Tax exemptions, temporary subsidies or lump sums to guide capitalists toward certain investments.
Command economy ideas:
  • An Economic Planning screen where you can design high-level investment rules and logic for your Command economy, which the AI will follow to the letter
  • Institutions to do certain tasks, for eg. an Infrastructure Investment Facility which will suck money from your budget to progressively raise all your provinces to a certain level of Railroad (eg. 1 railroad automatically built every month until target reached or funds not available)
Gameplay mechanics should fit the theme. Capitalists should invest like crazy, profit like crazy and uplift your GDP - but also hit dead ends, produce a lot of waste and poor social outcomes. Command economies should pass total control (and total responsibility) to the player to implement your grand 5 year plans, so you can watch your own designs fail and succeed.
"I only regret, that I have but one Love Reaction to give for this post."
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