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Whatever is optimal is going to be meta, that's how the word meta works. It's commonly (jokingly) abbreviated as Most Effective Tactic Available. The word originates from Greek, meaning "after" or "beyond" and is a prefix meaning more comprehensive or transcending. This also fits the modern usage of the word.
Whatever is optimal is going to be meta, that's how the word meta works. It's commonly (jokingly) abbreviated as Most Effective Tactic Available. The word originates from Greek, meaning "after" or "beyond" and is a prefix meaning more comprehensive or transcending. This also fits the modern usage of the word.
I have found my dream ship. I can die happy now. I will build this in every game and meme my way to victory.
Except he asked for the optimal build of a Capital ship not "Dont build them and only play with Subs and Naval Bombers as is the current exploity meta."
In my games I always prioritise speed for all vessels. As others have said, survivability is key simply because of the time and IC sink that most ships are. I disagree that BS are useless though as they can fit a large amount of AA on them which is incredibly useful. My strike force fleets usually just have 2-4 BS with 2-4 AC which covers most AA needs. I tend to stick with the lowest or second lowest armour though as it helps protect from secondary weapons without sacrificing speed.
Speed is also important for larger ships as the faster they can reach the line of battle, the faster they can take out the screen ships and get at the heavies. Now if you are hungry for heavy weapons, I find placing these on fast HC is a good idea as they're still protected by screens and can maintain a pretty high speed even with large weapons. They also take less time to build which helps if you start losing some.
BC are useful for patrol fleets and escort ships for their speed as you mentioned. I also like them as smaller nations since they are cheaper to build. They get a bad rap, but I think they're neat.
And do not scrimp on your radar! Those little puppies are phenomenal for finding and sinking fleets. Bless the radar.
I usually have four rules with capital ships:
1.) As much AA as possible; aircraft target capital ships first, and without AA they're going to get screwed up.
2.) As much light attack as possible, rather than heavy attack when possible. Light guns will be killing screens more effectively than heavy guns will, and if your screens win first then you probably win the naval battle (unscreened capital ships die REALLY fast most of the time). Too much heavy attack tends to raise cost and kill speed, and large navies have an overabundance of heavy attack anyways.
3.) Anything built after 1940 should probably be a BC, CA, or CV; BBs are too slow to build during wartime (unless you delay the start of the war, or are the US/Japan; you have extra time then). SHBBs either need you to rush-research equipment, or more likely can be refitted later.
4.) Refits are your friend; AA and radar upgrades by 1942-43 are spectacularly-effective, as are DP secondaries (both increased firepower and +3 AA per gun).
So my designs tend to center mostly around two styles of capital ship: for capital ship slugging matches, I like an SHBB with 1 or 2 heavy guns (no more, or speed drops really low). I usually want the speed to stay up, but for an SHBB it depends on the faction (Germany can throw their battleships into the English channel without much speed, but nations like Japan will need to travel farther and thus faster). Battlecruisers I only fit one main gun and max secondaries, with the best possible engine I can fit, which offers me something that can compete with all the starting capital ships in-game (the AI rarely builds new battleships in MTG).
I also always rush DP secondaries; these are outstanding for BBs and BCs as they offer both light attack and AA, and your dedicated AA will increase their effectiveness.
Examples:
Note that researching heavy guns is a terrible idea; SHBB guns are far more powerful (both attack and piercing) than even tier-4 heavy guns, and CA gun upgrades are vastly-more effective (and come alongside CL gun upgrades for good measure). In my experience both light and heavy gun upgrades are terrible (as opposed to depth charges, cruiser guns, torpedoes, and AA). You do need tech-2 heavy guns to unlock SHBB guns though.
Also note that armor is almost always better than the stats suggest, because you can get some significant armor buffs from doctrine (namely the 20% buff towards the end of the battleship upgrades; I feel like there are more but can't recall them). Armor is always nice for mitigating critical hits, which often kill large numbers of crew (killing the ship's experience) and often leaving it incapable of performing in its mission role (either due to stat drops or just massive HP loss).
For my composition of a battle fleet, I actually have only done it once as Germany and had alot of fun with it.
For my strike fleet, it was 1 super heavy BB, 2 Battleships, 2 carriers, 1 heavy cruisers and a ton of screens to put in there. I put in ASW and anti Air cruisers as well as ASW and Torpedo Destroyers for my composition. I made sure that I had at leastt a 5 to 1 ratio of screens to capitals which Heavy cruisers are a capital.
My battleship composition was actually trying to match the real life counterpart((Or the paper boat counterpart))
The Super heavy was based off the Kurfurst in WoWS so I put on four heavy batteries and maxed it out with dual secondaries and radar etc etc.
The Battleships were from the Bismarck/Tirpritz so I did those. Carriers were just max out on the hangar space and fill them with a mix of 60/30/10 ratoio for my aircraft or something like that in the ballpark.
Mostly fighter cover and then naval bombers as well for most attack. I had some Cas in there at all times cause dive bombers.
For my composition of a battle fleet, I actually have only done it once as Germany and had alot of fun with it.
For my strike fleet, it was 1 super heavy BB, 2 Battleships, 2 carriers, 1 heavy cruisers and a ton of screens to put in there. I put in ASW and anti Air cruisers as well as ASW and Torpedo Destroyers for my composition. I made sure that I had at leastt a 5 to 1 ratio of screens to capitals which Heavy cruisers are a capital.
My battleship composition was actually trying to match the real life counterpart((Or the paper boat counterpart))
The Super heavy was based off the Kurfurst in WoWS so I put on four heavy batteries and maxed it out with dual secondaries and radar etc etc.
The Battleships were from the Bismarck/Tirpritz so I did those. Carriers were just max out on the hangar space and fill them with a mix of 60/30/10 ratoio for my aircraft or something like that in the ballpark.
Mostly fighter cover and then naval bombers as well for most attack. I had some Cas in there at all times cause dive bombers.
I find it so interesting that you use SHBB. I usually just build two if I have extra dockyards and put those on landing escort missions. Their speed is so abysmal, I didn’t think them useful for other missions.
I find it so interesting that you use SHBB. I usually just build two if I have extra dockyards and put those on landing escort missions. Their speed is so abysmal, I didn’t think them useful for other missions.
I always build a super heavy and make it the Pride of the Fleet and put them in a strike force. But I also dont do strike force missions so far away from the base. I take 2-3 sea zones at a time and move forward slowly, but I also was playing Germany against UK, France, and USA fleets at the same time so if I over extended, I could have easily lost everything. It took forever to beat their navy but I did it!
This game was my historical Germany match where I didn't take over the UK in 39 and went for a long run. So I had to fight the Soviets as well as fight off the American Naval Invasions in Normandy, Italy AND Africa. So I was spread all over the world this match. I had built up a massive navy with my dockyards and went the Plan Z route. I ended up taking over the USA after the final two pictures here.
It was alot of fun. I ended up losing both of my original carriers at one point but the Super Heavy never died. Oh and in the last battle picture, the BB that died was the Bismarck ;(
I always build a super heavy and make it the Pride of the Fleet and put them in a strike force. But I also dont do strike force missions so far away from the base. I take 2-3 sea zones at a time and move forward slowly, but I also was playing Germany against UK, France, and USA fleets at the same time so if I over extended, I could have easily lost everything. It took forever to beat their navy but I did it!
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Nicely done- How does a battleship fleet fare against a Carrier fleet? I remember in HOI3 BC’s were the only hope against them because they could close in on them. Does the same rule apply? If I have a decked out battleship with lvl3 engines I’m pushing around 32kts best case scenario- sounds like a doomed fleet to me
This game was my historical Germany match where I didn't take over the UK in 39 and went for a long run. So I had to fight the Soviets as well as fight off the American Naval Invasions in Normandy, Italy AND Africa. So I was spread all over the world this match. I had built up a massive navy with my dockyards and went the Plan Z route. I ended up taking over the USA after the final two pictures here.
It was alot of fun. I ended up losing both of my original carriers at one point but the Super Heavy never died. Oh and in the last battle picture, the BB that died was the Bismarck ;(
I always build a super heavy and make it the Pride of the Fleet and put them in a strike force. But I also dont do strike force missions so far away from the base. I take 2-3 sea zones at a time and move forward slowly, but I also was playing Germany against UK, France, and USA fleets at the same time so if I over extended, I could have easily lost everything. It took forever to beat their navy but I did it!
This game was my historical Germany match where I didn't take over the UK in 39 and went for a long run. So I had to fight the Soviets as well as fight off the American Naval Invasions in Normandy, Italy AND Africa. So I was spread all over the world this match. I had built up a massive navy with my dockyards and went the Plan Z route. I ended up taking over the USA after the final two pictures here.
It was alot of fun. I ended up losing both of my original carriers at one point but the Super Heavy never died. Oh and in the last battle picture, the BB that died was the Bismarck ;(
These screenshots only confirm the point that it's the screens, not the capitals who win or lose naval engagements...notice how in each of these battles you sank of all theirs without losing any of yours.
These screenshots only confirm the point that it's the screens, not the capitals who win or lose naval engagements...notice how in each of these battles you sank of all theirs without losing any of yours.
While that's technically true, screens do worse against a group of screened capital ships than just other screens. Capital ships get a large bonus to their light attack from being screened (40%). Also, the AI is terrible at building screens (never enough light attack, or ASW for that matter).
A big thing happening off-screen from those sort of screenshots too is that ships are taking damage, but are being sent back into combat; capital ships tend not to die to screens if they can retreat (at least if they're running away due to already losing), but if the AI thinks its worth fighting and sends them back, then they're going to take catastrophic damage all at once. It also sometimes happens when the AI fights while out of fuel.
These screenshots only confirm the point that it's the screens, not the capitals who win or lose naval engagements...notice how in each of these battles you sank of all theirs without losing any of yours.
For (against) AI navies, everything works and it's all really is just a matter of taste, RP and self-imposed rules.
Contrary to what most say, my experience is focused on beating enemy capital ships with those of mine. Once their capitals (including carriers) are either sunk or retreated, enemy destroyers just can't provide anything substantial to the fight and gradually die or retreat.
Maybe if the Naval game was less of a lackluster, it would have been a bit different, but I can only comment the actual game.
For (against) AI navies, everything works and it's all really is just a matter of taste, RP and self-imposed rules.
Contrary to what most say, my experience is focused on beating enemy capital ships with those of mine. Once their capitals (including carriers) are either sunk or retreated, enemy destroyers just can't provide anything substantial to the fight and gradually die or retreat.
Maybe if the Naval game was less of a lackluster, it would have been a bit different, but I can only comment the actual game.
Depends on where they operate. In open oceans speed is more important: since ranges your TF has to travel aren't pathetic, anything below 25kts won't catch a lot (unless you're on defensive). You can also skimp on AA a bit in favour of firepower or speed, since air presence won't be nearly as heavy as in Europe and mostly carrier-based.
Vastly underrated comment. And this is also true for carriers. There was a reason why British carriers that were (also) intended to operate in the Med, close to enemy ground airbases, were constructed with a lot of deck armor. Whereas US Pacific carriers needed range, speed and size.
Battlecruiser armor doesn't stop heavy cruiser guns so I wouldn't bother with anything less than a battleship. Ignore speed, it will be averaged out by other ships. Really the super heavy battleships have the best HP and armor for the cost.
That's just fucking dumb. If you leave slow escorts or old battleships in the fleet you lower your overall speed and combat effectiveness, you're just shooting yourself in the foot..
Also last I heard, even if it won't give complete immunity but armor will still reduce sustained damage. And I have yet to see a heavy cruiser that doesn't get pulverised by proper capital ship guns if brought into a gun fight with anything bigger.
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