Capital Ships optimal load outs emphasis or compromise?

[BrianV]

I am conflicted between keeping speed up, Armor, Firepower. What do you emphasize on a battleship? A compromise between all three or do you keep one of those as high as possible above all others?

I was hearing that best just to keep heavy cruiser armor at minimum because even a 1918 battle ship can destroy the best armored heavy cruiser.

I noticed I made a 1940 Battlecruiser decked out with high level BC armor compared with a Battle ship the IC and build days was significantly lower to build However the armor compared with a BB was not that much difference. So I opted to go the BC route

 

[goodcigar]

I try to learn to but give up. Game not give you enough feedback to know.

 

[blahmaster6k]

Just don't build battleships, they're not worth the cost.

If you are absolutely devoted to the idea of a battleship-centered fleet, just put a couple heavy batteries on and the rest pack with either AA or DP secondaries. Max the armor, engine, fire control, and make sure you have damage control techs or your 20k IC investment will end up with broken rudders and exploded batteries and end up on the bottom of the sea.

 

[mpop]

Because the AI don't update or build good ships, BC with armor 2-3 are highly effective for their cost. So I don't build battleship either. When I do build battleships, the naval war is already over. battleship with armor 3 also cost 2 steel.. and i'm always running out of steel and never on chromium.

 

[TalyonUngol]

If you wanna build battleships, speed is the most important but don't go all out for it. Make sure to give the best armor and the engine, but you need to still put other things on it. If you want a speedy capital, Batlte cruisers are good in Convoy Escorts as the capital in fleet alongside a Escort Cruiser.

Battleships need a good mixture of things. If you have enough AA, you can dedicate most BB's to secondaries and dual secondaries provide both anti air and light attack.

Make sure to provide proper screens. A good solid ratio is 5 to 1. 5 screens to 1 capital. 5 lights cruisers/destroyers to each capital.

My favorite thing to build is super heavys with 3 heavy battieres, and a bunch of secondary batteries. It just feels nice to have them and its alot of fun for me. Just don't put them at too much risk. You must pay attention to the naval battles do you don't get everyhing sunk. Force a retreat if you must.

 

[STABBY5]

Battlecruiser armor doesn't stop heavy cruiser guns so I wouldn't bother with anything less than a battleship. Ignore speed, it will be averaged out by other ships. Really the super heavy battleships have the best HP and armor for the cost.

 

[bitmode]

Disclaimer: I don't have MtG.

I am conflicted between keeping speed up, Armor, Firepower. What do you emphasize on a battleship? A compromise between all three or do you keep one of those as high as possible above all others?

I was hearing that best just to keep heavy cruiser armor at minimum because even a 1918 battle ship can destroy the best armored heavy cruiser.

There is little reason to emphasize armor over speed, which is why true battleships are generally out of favor currently. Armor does not work like for land units. Having armor that can not be pierced does not truly put you at a class above the enemy as it was historically.

Most ways of gaining armor will lose you speed and/or increase your visibility substantially. On a capital ship those latter effects directly counteract the goal of armor, survivability. The hit chance of heavy guns is modified by (1.25 * visibility / speed)². So reducing your speed by 10% increases the hit chance by 21%; increasing visibility by 10% likewise increases hit chance by 21%.

To justify the ~10% speed penalty of BB armor (when compared to BC) on top of the ~7% increase in visibility, the armor value would need to increase by more than 1.1² * 1.07² = +38%, and it doesn't. For an increase in armor to be effective, it needs to happen beyond the range of enemy piercing. If the enemy can still pierce the increased armor value, you accomplished nothing at all. Evasion on the other hand is always effective against heavy guns.
And all that is before taking into account the out-of combat benefits of lighter armor like lower cost, being harder to spot, faster retreat/transit. Armor on the other hand has no benefits outside of combat.

Weighing firepower versus speed is more of a balance act. An agile, lightly armed BC can make a decent screen for carriers. In other scenarios firepower is probably equally important as speed.

Battlecruiser armor doesn't stop heavy cruiser guns

No armor "stops" any gun. A medium battery has 20 to 30 piercing. Even the beefiest armor merely cuts this in half, at staggering cost.

it will be averaged out by other ships

Speed is never averaged. Out of combat the slowest speed counts. In combat each ship uses its own speed for evasion.

Really the super heavy battleships have the best HP and armor for the cost.

Not being hit is better than tanking hits.

 

[STABBY5]

No armor "stops" any gun. A medium battery has 20 to 30 piercing. Even the beefiest armor merely cuts this in half, at staggering cost.

No but it does cut critical chance by 10% for all weapons, which are 100%-600% damage and can take a system offline. Everything that buffs capital ship armor are percentage based and will help higher armor the most.

Speed is never averaged. Out of combat the slowest speed counts. In combat each ship uses its own speed for evasion.

Back when 0 speed ships existed I tested it and they could always move in a fleet. I seem to remember reading it was averaged but I can never find the fleets speed in the interface. I could always be wrong.

Not being hit is better than tanking hits.

Last I checked battleships cannot dodge anything but torpedoes, and if torpedoes are being launched at your battleship then something has already gone wrong. Battlecruisers can but I'm not sure if the dodging they can do can match the armor of a SHBB in reducing damage, and the hp for taking plane hits. An air attack that would sink a normally BC or BB would only heavily damage a SHBB, stopping it from being a total loss.

 

[Emren]

Having armor that can not be pierced does not truly put you at a class above the enemy as it was historically.

Most ways of gaining armor will lose you speed and/or increase your visibility substantially. On a capital ship those latter effects directly counteract the goal of armor, survivability. The hit chance of heavy guns is modified by (1.25 * visibility / speed)². So reducing your speed by 10% increases the hit chance by 21%; increasing visibility by 10% likewise increases hit chance by 21%.

To justify the ~10% speed penalty of BB armor (when compared to BC) on top of the ~7% increase in visibility, the armor value would need to increase by more than 1.1² * 1.07² = +38% [...]

Ah, yes, if only the historical commanders, designers and leaders had access to the source files!

 

[bitmode]

Last I checked battleships cannot dodge anything but torpedoes, and if torpedoes are being launched at your battleship then something has already gone wrong. Battlecruisers can but I'm not sure if the dodging they can do can match the armor of a SHBB in reducing damage

You are right, going very heavily into armor is better in direct combat than I gave it credit for. Without MtG the hit profile is a bit less favorable for BBs compared to BCs.

Taking an example from the historical ship variant list, a Dunkerque Class BC dodges about 17% heavy gun fire, which is similar to +9 armor against medium batteries.

Ah, yes, if only the historical commanders, designers and leaders had access to the source files!

the darkest timeline

 

[Aeroclub]

At least in SP, I think this is the golden rule of naval warfare:

If you can't get past the screens, you're not going to win regardless of the capitals you have.
If you can kill the screens, you're going to win regardless of the capitals you have.

So yes, leaving aside the question of how you should design your screens, your capitals should also be designed with this rule in mind. What I do is a couple heavy batteries and then max secondaries/DP, and then do the best engines/armor (the costliest components) that I can afford while still commissioning the ship before the war starts.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Battlecruiser armor doesn't stop heavy cruiser guns so I wouldn't bother with anything less than a battleship. Ignore speed, it will be averaged out by other ships. Really the super heavy battleships have the best HP and armor for the cost.

Sure but the thing is, Battlecruisers are great in an escort scenario not a strike. They are good since they have higher speed and can escort your convoys. I mean I hardly will ever BUILD a battle cruiser but htey do have their uses.

 

[Gyrvendal]

In SP the best capital ship is called a SUB... just kidding.
Anyway cheap battlecruisers with modern tech, minimal big guns and lots of dual-purpose secondary guns are decent in SP. The principle is that they rely on speed for evading heavy shots and torpedoes, which compensates quite a bit for their lack of armor (also armor doesn't protect against torpedoes). Also they are much cheaper than full battleships. The DP guns also give them decent protection against air.
With a minimal screen of DDs those ships will wipe the floor with an infinite number of outdated ships the AI throws at you. But then again so can many other builds...

 

[TalyonUngol]

Just build your fleet the way you want against the AI and have fun. You don't have to meta-build your fleet/ships in order to enjoy yourself.

 

[bitmode]

Just build your fleet the way you want against the AI and have fun. You don't have to meta-build your fleet/ships in order to enjoy yourself.

Yeah but then you are probably not opening a thread literally asking for optimal builds.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Yeah but then you are probably not opening a thread literally asking for optimal builds.

Well as you can see, they aren't giving optimal builds. They are giving you exploity, gamey, meta builds. Don't build BB's! Don't build BC's! It's not helpful to the OP either.

 

[Casko]

In general, Speed stat is the most important. And because REASONS Armor Lvl doesn't affect your speed, the best way to design a Battleship, is to Max out the Engine and Armor, and then add 2 or 3 heavy guns, 1 or 2 secondary guns, and rest to be AA if you want to fully kit out every slot on a Battleship.

However generally speaking its fine to leave slot or two open for the extra speed. as in the game, speed is King of surface ships

 

[brainiac1530]

Well as you can see, they aren't giving optimal builds.

Aight, let's do this. I'mma give you some optimal builds, then.

1) Maximum heavy guns stat: Best available heavy batteries in every slot that allows them. This is at least 3 slots total. Best fire control and radar available
2) Minimum heavy guns stat: Heavy battery 1 in the mandatory fixed slot. Fire control 0, radar < 3
3) Maximum armor: Highest unlocked BB armor
4) Minimum armor: BC armor 1. Armor slot is mandatory.
5) Maximum speed: Exactly one heavy turret 1 in the mandatory slot, BC armor (any), best engine available
6) Minimum speed: See maximum heavy guns stat, but with engine 1 and heaviest BB armor available
7) Maximum AA: AA in all custom slots, plus 1 in the mandatory fixed slot. Best fire control and radar available
8) Minimum AA: AA 1 in the mandatory fixed slot, Fire control 0, radar < 3
9) Maximum light guns: Best available secondaries in fixed slot and as many custom slots as allowed (at least 3.) Best fire control and radar available
10) Minimum light guns: None! The fixed secondary slots is not mandatory.
11) Maximum resources: See Maximum heavy guns. Use maximum tier batteries, hull, and armor if possible
12) Minimum resources: See Minimum heavy guns, except also avoid the 1944 hull and use BC armor 1 or 2

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Depends on where they operate. In open oceans speed is more important: since ranges your TF has to travel aren't pathetic, anything below 25kts won't catch a lot (unless you're on defensive). You can also skimp on AA a bit in favour of firepower or speed, since air presence won't be nearly as heavy as in Europe and mostly carrier-based.

In the end, it all comes down to: how much of that IC are you willing to lose in case of bad RNG? Ship stuffed with shiny toys might look nice on paper, but won't necessarily get enough extra survivability to justify the costs.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Aight, let's do this. I'mma give you some optimal builds, then.

1) Maximum heavy guns stat: Best available heavy batteries in every slot that allows them. This is at least 3 slots total. Best fire control and radar available
2) Minimum heavy guns stat: Heavy battery 1 in the mandatory fixed slot. Fire control 0, radar < 3
3) Maximum armor: Highest unlocked BB armor
4) Minimum armor: BC armor 1. Armor slot is mandatory.
5) Maximum speed: Exactly one heavy turret 1 in the mandatory slot, BC armor (any), best engine available
6) Minimum speed: See maximum heavy guns stat, but with engine 1 and heaviest BB armor available
7) Maximum AA: AA in all custom slots, plus 1 in the mandatory fixed slot. Best fire control and radar available
8) Minimum AA: AA 1 in the mandatory fixed slot, Fire control 0, radar < 3
9) Maximum light guns: Best available secondaries in fixed slot and as many custom slots as allowed (at least 3.) Best fire control and radar available
10) Minimum light guns: None! The fixed secondary slots is not mandatory.
11) Maximum resources: See Maximum heavy guns. Use maximum tier batteries, hull, and armor if possible
12) Minimum resources: See Minimum heavy guns, except also avoid the 1944 hull and use BC armor 1 or 2

There ya go. Someone -actually- helpful to the thread.