Capacities: Victoria 3 Expert Discussion (Spudgun)

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Moppy771

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Near the beginning they talk about how the originally released screenshots hid the capacities because the developers knew that if people saw a bird symbol next to a number in a screenshot with zero context they would flip the f*** out, and how Paradox is bad evil and wrong for doing this, but uh... are they though? Sounds like showing bird+number with no explanation would have been a pretty piss poor idea if you ask me.

Anyways, the whole thing was filled with a lot of cynical wankery. Picking apart every sentence of the diary. Everything Paradox tells us is just to 'distract us'. And everything not said in the diary is obviously because Paradox is going to do <insert terrible idea> and they don't want us to know yet.
Seems to me more like you can't differentiate between totally harmless tongue-in-cheek remarks vs valid questions and instead dismiss any discussion that seems 'too critical'. The game is in development, you have no stake in attempting to deflect every possible critiquing remark about the devs or paradox in general, especially after the long line of flops as of recent. No need to do free PR work.
 
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Regardless of the content, I do think it's a bit misleading that they label it "Victoria 3 Expert Discussion". That does give the impression that they're experts at Victoria 3, which isn't out yet. You could be literally the best at every Paradox game - you still wouldn't be a Vicky 3 expert. I get that the intent is probably "Victoria 3; expert discussion", but y'know. That's not the impression the title gives.
 
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they were being doomers is my guess

"Experts"

Oh I thought this was going to be the devs talking about it or at least actual journalists or game media talking about it, not self-proclaimed "experts" just because they have a youtube channel.
This isn't Reddit. These are not dislikes, they are "respectful disagreements."
I just disagree with some of the points in the video. Nothing personal against you.

@Moppy771 It's a respectful disagreements and not dislike, and all the others quotes summarize my respectful disagreement. Futhermore, I'm not skeptical on capacities as a game mechanic, based on what I read in DD and the devs' comments throughout the discussion in the DD thread. I played a lot of Vic 2, I don't consider myself an "expert", but I know the mechanics of that game well. I was one of those who doubted the paradox's ability to develop a good sequel to what I consider their masterpiece which is Vic 2, but with everything I'm reading about the devs' view of the game, the few DD's we've had, their interventions in the questions in the forum threads, I'm really enjoying how this game is coming together, including in that the capacities' mechanic. Another thing is that we still have little information available not only about this mechanic but its relationship with other game mechanics for us to reach conclusions from "experts".
 
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Seems to me more like you can't differentiate between totally harmless tongue-in-cheek remarks vs valid questions and instead dismiss any discussion that seems 'too critical'. The game is in development, you have no stake in attempting to deflect every possible critiquing remark about the devs or paradox in general, especially after the long line of flops as of recent. No need to do free PR work.
Sure. Absolutely. Everyone who doesn't sign in to your doomer PoV is a flack for Paradox. That's why we're annoyed with you. It's not because 90% of the time when you ask basic questions to people from your camp you get answers like:

We'll see when the game is launched how it is, from what I've read, to me it looks, just like a reworked mana system, and I don't won't another Imperator launch situation
 
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I'm not opposed to skepticism, I just expect that if a panel purports to be a panel of experts, they should actually know what they're talking about and not think that an admin building had no connection to the POPs working in it or the broader economy.

They almost stumbled onto this when Nurse Reno accidentally referred to admin efficiency in Vicky 2 as "paper" and the host said "Ah yes, if Paradox was smart they would have made these Vicky 3 bureaucrats use paper!" As if that is not exactly what is going to end up happening.

Wait a sec, there were someone on that stream, that played "devil's advocate" and said, that building by themselves don't produce admin and use POPs working there. They addressed that point.
 

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I think it's important to not just be yes-men while a game is still in development, least we have another early launch Imperator.
Yeah I saw the beginning of it as well, but as someone wrote in the live chat, they really need a paradox simp in that group to counter their arguments. It sounds like an echo-chamber, with no counter-arguments to what they are arguing.
Especially Nurse_Reno who I'm 100% sure had decided his position on capacities before the even reading about them.
 
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Regardless of the content, I do think it's a bit misleading that they label it "Victoria 3 Expert Discussion". That does give the impression that they're experts at Victoria 3, which isn't out yet. You could be literally the best at every Paradox game - you still wouldn't be a Vicky 3 expert. I get that the intent is probably "Victoria 3; expert discussion", but y'know. That's not the impression the title gives.
I understand that, I think it has a lot to do with, being an attractive title, so that it gets clicks. Being so, it does say "The most informed and experienced group when it comes to Victoria 2" in the description and they as a group, apart from piechucker, have a lot of experience playing Victoria 2 and creating good mods for it.
 
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Near the beginning they talk about how the originally released screenshots hid the capacities because the developers knew that if people saw a bird symbol next to a number in a screenshot with zero context they would flip the f*** out, and how Paradox is bad evil and wrong for doing this, but uh... are they though? Sounds like showing bird+number with no explanation would have been a pretty piss poor idea if you ask me.

Anyways, the whole thing was filled with a lot of cynical wankery. Picking apart every sentence of the diary. Everything Paradox tells us is just to 'distract us'. And everything not said in the diary is obviously because Paradox is going to do <insert terrible idea> and they don't want us to know yet.
I thought picking apart every sentence of a dairy is kind of what this discussion supposed to be about. I also don't think that cynical viewpoint is something bad, it may be healthy for expectations. Paradox still a company that want to make money and carefully approaches PR and all around it and want to make game accessible. How part game is made more accessible at the cost of depth is another major point of how game will be played.
 
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Sure. Absolutely. Everyone who doesn't sign in to your doomer PoV is a flack for Paradox. That's why we're annoyed with you. It's not because 90% of the time when you ask basic questions to people from your camp you get answers like:
Please, don't act like doomers are the only one at fault of turning this discussion toxic. Who came here we complete dismissal and personal attacks?
People should chill. Both sides seem to be unhealthly invested in this.
 
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Wait a sec, there were someone on that stream, that played "devil's advocate" and said, that building by themselves don't produce admin and use POPs working there. They addressed that point.
Yes, the one guy who seemed to have actually read the dev comments did say that. It had zero impact on the discussion and received zero follow up or elaboration.
 
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Sure. Absolutely. Everyone who doesn't sign in to your doomer PoV is a flack for Paradox. That's why we're annoyed with you. It's not because 90% of the time when you ask basic questions to people from your camp you get answers like:
Sure, because your arguments were full of constructive thoughts, and you weren't saying from the start how you didn't watch it all, but you still know what they were talking about, and if I said how I think the capacities work, yo would probably just dismiss it, as every comment before
 
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+Gets out Bingo card+

1. "Understands the game better than the devs do" ✓

2. "You can't have a negative opinion unless you've watched a 2 hour video" (gushing postive opinions are fine) ✓

3. Everyone who disagrees with me is a fanboy/shill/yes-man ✓

4. Journalists and Devs are conspiring against players ✓

5. Schrodinger's Douchebaggery ✓
 
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Moppy771

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Ngl that's a valid response

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alexlock

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Its really not. Most of this stuff was easily inferable from the dev diary (or this dev diary plus the previous one in combination). And expecting them to read, what, like a dozen dev posts (at most?) is perfectly reasonable.
But should we infer anything? Last time this was the case, we got Imperator. After release discussion devolved into essntially how people misinterpreted dev diares and built up unrealistic expectations.
 
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JustJacque

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Yeah especially as alot of the dev responses are "no it is not the literally worst possible interpretation of the mechanic you can think of (building a admin building adds BCap on its own without any bureaucrats to work it) and is actually the entirely reasonable mechanic many people thought it would be (bureaucrats work in that building.)"
 
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Spartakusbund

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But should we infer anything? Last time this was the case, we got Imperator. After release discussion devolved into essntially how people misinterpreted dev diares and built up unrealistic expectations.
"Buildings require POPs to work them" is not an unreasonable inference to make.

The one thing that I think was poorly explained in the dev diary itself was what "Road Maintenance" was. Beyond that, I don't see Spudguns point at all.
 
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