Capacities: Victoria 3 Expert Discussion (Spudgun)

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Paghalay

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cold and rationale observation of the information
Cold, absolutely, rationale, not guaranteed just because you're not on a "hype" train. You can be just as irrational if you're on the opposite of a hype train too
 
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From what we’ve seen we can extract some really bad things: those flat arbitrary values (“+100, +150, -200”) in the capacities tab, Sweden getting 1/4 of their entire diplomatic power (mana) from a ruler trait,
1623337020699.png


I think Wiz should learn a lesson here. It apparently always needs saying. Every time; bolded and underlined too perhaps.
 
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IndigoRage

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it would be a lot more easier if they included ALL the information in the dev diary, as opposed to, yknow,having people forum dive. This issue is also brought up in the stream itself and they also look at the dev comments.
It's a total non-issue as there's literally a button to only see dev replies exactly for this situation.
 
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Ferrous Will

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View attachment 730403

I think Wiz should learn a lesson here. It apparently always needs saying. Every time; bolded and underlined too perhaps.
Really? i thought the lesson is "add a random prime number to all ingame numbers, otherwise it is 'arbitrary'"
 
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Alfred Dreyfus

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Cold, absolutely, rationale, not guaranteed just because you're not on a "hype" train. You can be just as irrational if you're on the opposite of a hype train too
Can I ask you guys a question? Did you follow Imperator Rome’s development?

Because I did, and I remember all this unconditional support hype, and then the game released, and it was awful. And it is surprising because things looked bad in those dev diaries, but the majority didn’t care, it was just unconditional hype.

Also I’ve seeing this same case for the EU4 expansions in the last years, everytime the same unconditional love for the dev diaries, and the expansions have been terribly bad for the last 4 years. This last Leviathan DLC is the first time I’ve seen the actual majority of people in the EU4 forums actually complain, critique, etc. But after release only, if you take a look at the Leviathan dev diaries, you’ll see they were all giving their unconditional support to Johan before release. And man, it looked bad, before release.
 
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Paghalay

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it would be a lot more easier if they included ALL the information in the dev diary, as opposed to, yknow,having people forum dive. This issue is also brought up in the stream itself and they also look at the dev comments.
They could also include 10x the amount of information in any diary, and still have questions to answer in the comments, which would result in an overload of information.

And is apparently a corporate trick to hide stuff. can't win either way.
 
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wilcoxchar

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Maybe they are not following Vic3’s dev diaries with the same passion as people on the forum, but you can’t deny they are good at analyzing the information. I mean, just by taking a look at the few images we have from the game they’ve been able to extract a lot of information.
On the contrary, from what we've seen in this thread alone but also from the examples people have mentioned from the video they are in fact not good at reading or analyzing the information, and even worse they are proud of it.
Also them being in the sceptical train rather than the hype train (like most of us on the forums are), lets them make a more cold and rationale observation of the information.
This is also unfounded. It's certainly possible to be just as emotional in skepticism or pessimism about something based on little or no information. Skepticism and cynicism do not imply rationalism of objectivity at all, except for those attempting to self-justify their cynicism. Assuming the worst and being a "doomer" as they say they have done is pretty much entirely an emotional reaction.
 
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Paghalay

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Can I ask you guys a question? Did you follow Imperator Rome’s development?
I followed it from the teasers about the game, before the name or setting of the game was announced, so yes I did.
And I will be clear here. I am not one for getting hyped for games, or giving unconditional support to anything.

However, I AM someone that thinks getting worked up about features and other things that we know incredibly little about is just as bad as overhyping a game. I also think "expert" opinions from predecessor games is relatively meaningless for new game releases, as they are different games.
I'd say I am pretty clued up with Rome 1, but prior to Rome II's release I never would have been able to claim to be an expert and start critiquing the features they had announced, as I hadn't touched Rome II before release.
 
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Better than to just think everything will be great, and all this capacities work almost as mana. I would like to avoid another imperator launch situation
There's a point where skepticism stops being realistic skepticism and becomes making up something to get people nervous about. Something I wouldn't say is any better necessarily.

I'm not sure how a capacity is supposed to seem like mana.
 
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Can I ask you guys a question? Did you follow Imperator Rome’s development?

Because I did, and I remember all this unconditional support hype, and then the game released, and it was shit. And it is surprising because things looked bad in those dev diaries, but no one care, it was just brainless hype.

Also I’ve seeing this same case for the EU4 expansions in the last years, everytime the same unconditional love for the dev diaries, and the expansions have been pure shit for the last 4 years. This last Leviathan DLC is the first time I’ve seen the majority of people in the EU4 forums actually complain, critique, etc. But hey, take a look at the Leviathan dev diaries, they were all giving their unconditional support to Johan before release. And man, it looked bad, before release.
I highly doubt you followed the development of I:R if that's how you remember it. People were extremely critical of the game before release, with plenty of dev diaries being heavily 'respectfully disagreed' with.
 
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Alfred Dreyfus

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View attachment 730403

I think Wiz should learn a lesson here. It apparently always needs saying. Every time; bolded and underlined too perhaps.
Yes. Wiz should tell us in the dev diaries if those flat base values are going to be in the game or are just provisional. I agree with you.

Anyway, you are missing the point. The point is not if the flat value is +100 or +200, that’s a balance thing. What we are talking about is if mana values are going to be organic and calculated with other values (population, economic data, etc) or is it just going to be flat fixed arbitrary mana value EU4 style.
 
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Yes. Wiz should tell us in the dev diaries if those flat base values are going to be in the game or are just provisional. I agree with you.

Anyway, you are missing the point. The point is not if the flat value is +100 or +200, that’s a balance thing. What we are talking about is if mana values are going to be organic and calculated with other values (population, economic data, etc) or is it just going to be flat fixed arbitrary mana value EU4 style.
Just because it isn’t derived directly from POPs doesn’t mean it’s arbitrary.
 
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I liked the discussion and i agree with most of the general points that where brought by the participants.

However, it was mostly a speculative discussion and i think people who listen to it should be aware of that.
 
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Paghalay

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if you take a look at the Leviathan dev diaries, you’ll see they were all giving their unconditional support to Johan before release. And man, it looked bad, before release.
I haven't been up to speed with EU4 stuff for a while (despite it being one of my most played games) but from what I saw most the to backlash to that DLC, which was a tad more than a lot to understate, came from incredibly poor performance and balance issues, not from the actual mechanics and features the DLC added? That's the type of stuff you won't see if a dev diary anyway.
 
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I haven't been up to speed with EU4 stuff for a while (despite it being one of my most played games) but from what I saw most the to backlash to that DLC, which was a tad more than a lot to understate, came from incredibly poor performance and balance issues, not from the actual mechanics and features the DLC added? That's the type of stuff you won't see if a dev diary anyway.
Yeah, the issues seemed to be more like EU ate all my savegames, not Leviathan is bad. I haven't followed it much as well, but the complaints seem to be about lack of Q&A, not about the features.
 
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Yeah, the issues seemed to be more like EU ate all my savegames, not Leviathan is bad. I haven't followed it much as well, but the complaints seem to be about lack of Q&A, not about the features.
There's some issue with the features like how centralize state works, but the vast majority of the backlash was in regard to the utter completely thrashed state the game was left in. Like new bugs in areas it didn't even make sense for them to touch. Art broken everywhere. The mechanical complaints in comparison were very minor.
 
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Yes. Wiz should tell us in the dev diaries if those flat base values are going to be in the game or are just provisional. I agree with you.

Anyway, you are missing the point. The point is not if the flat value is +100 or +200, that’s a balance thing. What we are talking about is if mana values are going to be organic and calculated with other values (population, economic data, etc) or is it just going to be flat fixed arbitrary mana value EU4 style.

The production from the building scales to the available workforce - an empty building doesn't provide any benefits.

I agree, Wiz should tell us whether they will be organic and calculated with population values or is it just going to be flat fixed arbitrary mana value EU4 style.
 
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Can I ask you guys a question? Did you follow Imperator Rome’s development?

Because I did, and I remember all this unconditional support hype, and then the game released, and it was awful. And it is surprising because things looked bad in those dev diaries, but the majority didn’t care, it was just unconditional hype.

Also I’ve seeing this same case for the EU4 expansions in the last years, everytime the same unconditional love for the dev diaries, and the expansions have been terribly bad for the last 4 years. This last Leviathan DLC is the first time I’ve seen the actual majority of people in the EU4 forums actually complain, critique, etc. But after release only, if you take a look at the Leviathan dev diaries, you’ll see they were all giving their unconditional support to Johan before release. And man, it looked bad, before release.
I have to ask you a question: did you follow the Imperator's development? Because I did and I remember a ton of criticism under the dev diaries, especially under the more controversial ones (about the "fun and engaging" single five-year consul, four buildings, mana etc.). You can read it all here if your memory is fuzzy:
Yes, there was hype, because people were excited that a new Rome game is going to be released and it will have pops, beautiful huge map etc. But there was no "unconditional" support of everything the devs announced. People wanted to love the game, but bad features were clearly seen by the majority even then.

EU4 expansions - the same story. People hated the button where you get one building slot for a ton of admin capacity, people were wary of the concentrate development, pillage capital and curry favors. A couple of hyped guys aren't "unconditional support".
 
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Yes. Wiz should tell us in the dev diaries if those flat base values are going to be in the game or are just provisional. I agree with you.

Anyway, you are missing the point. The point is not if the flat value is +100 or +200, that’s a balance thing. What we are talking about is if mana values are going to be organic and calculated with other values (population, economic data, etc) or is it just going to be flat fixed arbitrary mana value EU4 style.

The game is pre-alpha. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that therefore no number is set in stone.

Secondly discussion on this forums would improve at least tenfold if any use of the word mana was censored by !#$% or if people could simply type what they mean, because every single time it leads to discussions about what you actually mean with the word.

We know that all the values are connected to elements dealing with the subject.

Bureaucracy is mainly/solely created by bureaucrats.

Authority is how much power your ruler has to do stuff independently of the other branches of government and it's based on your laws.

Influence is mainly based on your power and prestige.

Is there discussion to be had whether these values should be discrete or continuous, sure. But dismissing everything as arbitrary is just annoying.
Lastly, people have wanted to see rulers in V3 for a while. If they are there, they should also have some effect on gameplay. Having them give certain bonuses or penalties can be a fine abstraction. Is 20% of your influence too much, maybe, but that's a discussion for when we know more.
 
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Can I ask you guys a question? Did you follow Imperator Rome’s development?

Because I did, and I remember all this unconditional support hype, and then the game released, and it was awful. And it is surprising because things looked bad in those dev diaries, but the majority didn’t care, it was just unconditional hype.

Also I’ve seeing this same case for the EU4 expansions in the last years, everytime the same unconditional love for the dev diaries, and the expansions have been terribly bad for the last 4 years. This last Leviathan DLC is the first time I’ve seen the actual majority of people in the EU4 forums actually complain, critique, etc. But after release only, if you take a look at the Leviathan dev diaries, you’ll see they were all giving their unconditional support to Johan before release. And man, it looked bad, before release.

I certainly did, & that was the reason I never bought it at the time. It was clear the direction the game was going, with the lead developer even replying at its heart it was a paint mapper. I also saw the big problems in design, as did many, as many of the diaries were very negative, which is unusual for a Paradox release. So it was clear there were big problems. Everything I have seen so far from this game is positive, which is not to surprising as it has a good base to work from unlike Imperator.