Really? i thought the lesson is "add a random prime number to all ingame numbers, otherwise it is 'arbitrary'"
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Capacities: Victoria 3 Expert Discussion (Spudgun)
- Thread starter Moppy771
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Can I ask you guys a question? Did you follow Imperator Rome’s development?
Because I did, and I remember all this unconditional support hype, and then the game released, and it was awful. And it is surprising because things looked bad in those dev diaries, but the majority didn’t care, it was just unconditional hype.
Also I’ve seeing this same case for the EU4 expansions in the last years, everytime the same unconditional love for the dev diaries, and the expansions have been terribly bad for the last 4 years. This last Leviathan DLC is the first time I’ve seen the actual majority of people in the EU4 forums actually complain, critique, etc. But after release only, if you take a look at the Leviathan dev diaries, you’ll see they were all giving their unconditional support to Johan before release. And man, it looked bad, before release.
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They could also include 10x the amount of information in any diary, and still have questions to answer in the comments, which would result in an overload of information.
And is apparently a corporate trick to hide stuff. can't win either way.
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On the contrary, from what we've seen in this thread alone but also from the examples people have mentioned from the video they are in fact not good at reading or analyzing the information, and even worse they are proud of it.
This is also unfounded. It's certainly possible to be just as emotional in skepticism or pessimism about something based on little or no information. Skepticism and cynicism do not imply rationalism of objectivity at all, except for those attempting to self-justify their cynicism. Assuming the worst and being a "doomer" as they say they have done is pretty much entirely an emotional reaction.
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I followed it from the teasers about the game, before the name or setting of the game was announced, so yes I did.
And I will be clear here. I am not one for getting hyped for games, or giving unconditional support to anything.
However, I AM someone that thinks getting worked up about features and other things that we know incredibly little about is just as bad as overhyping a game. I also think "expert" opinions from predecessor games is relatively meaningless for new game releases, as they are different games.
I'd say I am pretty clued up with Rome 1, but prior to Rome II's release I never would have been able to claim to be an expert and start critiquing the features they had announced, as I hadn't touched Rome II before release.
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There's a point where skepticism stops being realistic skepticism and becomes making up something to get people nervous about. Something I wouldn't say is any better necessarily.
I'm not sure how a capacity is supposed to seem like mana.
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I highly doubt you followed the development of I:R if that's how you remember it. People were extremely critical of the game before release, with plenty of dev diaries being heavily 'respectfully disagreed' with.
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Yes. Wiz should tell us in the dev diaries if those flat base values are going to be in the game or are just provisional. I agree with you.
Anyway, you are missing the point. The point is not if the flat value is +100 or +200, that’s a balance thing. What we are talking about is if mana values are going to be organic and calculated with other values (population, economic data, etc) or is it just going to be flat fixed arbitrary mana value EU4 style.
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Just because it isn’t derived directly from POPs doesn’t mean it’s arbitrary.
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I liked the discussion and i agree with most of the general points that where brought by the participants.
However, it was mostly a speculative discussion and i think people who listen to it should be aware of that.
However, it was mostly a speculative discussion and i think people who listen to it should be aware of that.
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I haven't been up to speed with EU4 stuff for a while (despite it being one of my most played games) but from what I saw most the to backlash to that DLC, which was a tad more than a lot to understate, came from incredibly poor performance and balance issues, not from the actual mechanics and features the DLC added? That's the type of stuff you won't see if a dev diary anyway.
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Yeah, the issues seemed to be more like EU ate all my savegames, not Leviathan is bad. I haven't followed it much as well, but the complaints seem to be about lack of Q&A, not about the features.
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There's some issue with the features like how centralize state works, but the vast majority of the backlash was in regard to the utter completely thrashed state the game was left in. Like new bugs in areas it didn't even make sense for them to touch. Art broken everywhere. The mechanical complaints in comparison were very minor.
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I agree, Wiz should tell us whether they will be organic and calculated with population values or is it just going to be flat fixed arbitrary mana value EU4 style.
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I have to ask you a question: did you follow the Imperator's development? Because I did and I remember a ton of criticism under the dev diaries, especially under the more controversial ones (about the "fun and engaging" single five-year consul, four buildings, mana etc.). You can read it all here if your memory is fuzzy:
Development Diary Archive
Development Diary #1 - 28th of May 2018 - The Vision: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/imperator-development-diary-1-28th-of-may-2018.1101600/ Development Diary #2 - 4th of June 2018 - The Map: Provinces and Cities...
EU4 expansions - the same story. People hated the button where you get one building slot for a ton of admin capacity, people were wary of the concentrate development, pillage capital and curry favors. A couple of hyped guys aren't "unconditional support".
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The game is pre-alpha. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that therefore no number is set in stone.
Secondly discussion on this forums would improve at least tenfold if any use of the word mana was censored by !#$% or if people could simply type what they mean, because every single time it leads to discussions about what you actually mean with the word.
We know that all the values are connected to elements dealing with the subject.
Bureaucracy is mainly/solely created by bureaucrats.
Authority is how much power your ruler has to do stuff independently of the other branches of government and it's based on your laws.
Influence is mainly based on your power and prestige.
Is there discussion to be had whether these values should be discrete or continuous, sure. But dismissing everything as arbitrary is just annoying.
Lastly, people have wanted to see rulers in V3 for a while. If they are there, they should also have some effect on gameplay. Having them give certain bonuses or penalties can be a fine abstraction. Is 20% of your influence too much, maybe, but that's a discussion for when we know more.
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I certainly did, & that was the reason I never bought it at the time. It was clear the direction the game was going, with the lead developer even replying at its heart it was a paint mapper. I also saw the big problems in design, as did many, as many of the diaries were very negative, which is unusual for a Paradox release. So it was clear there were big problems. Everything I have seen so far from this game is positive, which is not to surprising as it has a good base to work from unlike Imperator.
Hmm... Actually, I couldn't find any.
I could've sworn I had heard something like it, but it may have been my own interpretation from what was said that I took as fact for some reason.
It might've been because Wiz directly quoted the Bavarian's tweet mentioning exactly that, but he didn't actually address using goods or money, or even the process itself.
Thanks for making me factcheck myself, consider me now worried.
The tweet in question: (Wiz quoted the first one).
Still pretty strange to decouple it from bureaucracy though, and having just a tax penalty could undermine the whole mechanic in the end.
I mean, I have yet to see a guide that goes so deep into the bowels of the economy simulation, if you could point one to me I'd love to read it.
Agreed, but like I said, even if I consider their opinions credible enough (from a Vic2 perspective) to be worth listening, they aren't to be taken as gospel, we have to think about what they are saying and disregard if they are not in line with public info.
And their "doomer" stance is certainly pervasive in this matter, and even more reason to take it with a grain of salt, as it most certainly will (and already has) skew their views in a lot of ways.
I hope so, but I haven't seen any info on that yet, so as far as we know it's simply a tax penalty.
And yes, I'd agree that Vic2 is the PDX game that deal with treasury in the most realistic way, but even then it wasn't very hard to be on a huge surplus by the late game, to the point where you could lower taxation to 0% sometimes.
There it was just a quirk, but here it would render bureaucratic capacity pretty much irrelevant, with huge implications.
It is indeed a problem, and one to be scrutinized for sure, but I'm certainly hoping they can find people from the other side to balance the discussion in the future.
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Well, that's the thing, EU4 expansions have destroyed the game by making it so bloated an inconsistent with itself, but people never complain about it.
That's because most people don't go beyond the mindset of "new content for the game, great!".
We need more people on the forums that analyse and criticize the development and design of the games. Devs need feedback, not just hype nonsense.
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Are you kidding me?
So if Leviathan didn't break your savegames, you would consider Leviathan a good DLC?
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