Cannibalizing TPATT

[mgr251]

Dear friends this is only my second post as I only speak out of necessity; for those of you fortunate enough to of played TPATT you will remember no richer more rewarding for of CK2 game play has ever existed. The team of the HIP has done its best to replace TPATT but sometimes the best is not enough; at least for those of use depraved by historical fanaticism. Sadly as most of us know TPATT died months ago before the SoA DLC as we believe due to the lack of free time or personal issues on the part of idib. Given the work idid put into that mod his passion for history is evident however at this point in time I have given up hope of his return; therefore I humbly submit to the developers of this mod that they ask idib for permission to incoporate aspects of his mod such as COAs and historical game play features. Another mod Patrum Scuta as well provides many more COAs as well and frankly ARKO's mod has all but ruined the COA designer within the game and while his effort to achieve historical COAs is admirable it does not go far enough. What say you fellows of the forum?

 

[yezhanquan]

I heard the mod had a decent economic system. That's what I want.

 

[DirtyRoberto]

Sounds good

 

[djcool]

+1

 

[EmperorTojo]

I was doing something like this for my own personal tweaks, but nothing major. What kind of features do you desire from TPATT?

 

[mgr251]

possible reform ideas

1. The COAs and COA designer (presently designing COAs is one sided undesirably image-less)
2. The historical characters
3. The cardinal trait (as popes named many more than ones in game)
4. Something similar to the templar system where your character can join an order of chivalry
5. Historical reform decisions
6. Peerage of England system
7. Ability to create a holy order
8. Holy war was nice
*Not TPATT but it would be nice if later gen dynasties like Medici, Borgia etc....
Thank god the guys from SWMH stuck around cause no one makes better maps than them.

 

[theKing1988]

1. The COAs and COA designer (presently designing COAs is one sided undesirably image-less)
2. The historical characters
3. The cardinal trait (as popes named many more than ones in game)
4. Something similar to the templar system where your character can join an order of chivalry
5. Historical reform decisions
6. Peerage of England system
7. Ability to create a holy order
8. Holy war was nice
*Not TPATT but it would be nice if later gen dynasties like Medici, Borgia etc....
Thank god the guys from SWMH stuck around cause no one makes better maps than them.

1. The mod creator of SWMH has been bitten by the CoA bug lately, he has been making a lot of new CoA's for the next SWMH release. But he will not be using TPATT's CoA's. He's just going for historical accuracy, like we always are.

Other than that you need to talk to Arko when it concerns CoA changes.

2. We are always trying to add historical characters for SWMH at least and i suspect that Cybr does the same for VIET. In SWMH we usually add historical characters when we do an overhaul of a specific region. I have started research for the overhaul of Anatolia and Greece for example and if i find important historic characters that are missing from the game i will of course add them. We don't specifically go through the old TPATT files during this process, because verifying our data from scholarly work is more important, but if you know of historical personalities who are not currently in the game that you would like to see added you are always more than welcome to suggest them to the SWMH team.

3. The cardinal traits sounds like VIET territory to me if Cybr is interested in adding it. Or potentially something that Calantyr can add to his thematic additions.

4. Calantyr has already created a sub-mod that you can run alongside HIP that adds parts of, or all of the templar system

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?774350-Sub-Mod-Thematic-Additions

5. It's been too long since i've even looked at the TPATT files, so you'll need to elaborate on that one.

6. Again, this sounds like something that belongs in VIET or in a submod (Calantyr again)

7. I think that this would be a bit low on the priority list to be honest.

8. How did the Holy War CB in TPATT differ from the HIP equivalent

Oh and one last thing. The team usually have their own ideas and plans on how to develop the different modules, which they are working on continously. And borrowing from other mods have always been way down on the priority list. You'll need to do a lot of convincing as to why it would be so great to implement the things in question if you want them to put the things that they are doing already on hold or to do things radically different (which it sounds like you're asking Arko to do)

 

[Kurek]

speaking of things from other mods, the elder kings has a cool decisions menu system where you click 'open employment options' and it clears everything apart from the various invite dudes to courts and otherstuff like that, makes the decisions menu much less cluttered and cool. would be nice if something like that could be done for this HTTP, the menu can get very cluttered.

 

[Arko]

1. The COAs and COA designer (presently designing COAs is one sided undesirably image-less)

as King underlined, i won't make major changes to how my mod works, because it is major changes you request here, you have to be aware about this.
CoA -and any mod around- have some technical limitations and obviously need design choices. i compose with technical limitations and decide myself what choices i made from this startpoint. repeating your request here and there and everywhere surely won't change it in any way.

 

[TheOx129]

TPATT had some cool stuff from what I remember, but I also recall it being rather unstable and having too much of a haphazard kitchen sink feel at times (i.e., "Let's throw this in because it's historical/immersive" rather than "Let's throw this in because it's historical/immersive AND interesting from a gameplay perspective"). I never played TPATT as much as CK2+ in the early days of CK2 modding, so my memory is probably not the best, but there were at least a couple of features that I wouldn't mind seeing implemented elsewhere:

1. Papal reforms - there are a variety of reforms of the Church that the Pope can initiate - such as Libertas ecclesiae - that secular rulers can then accept or reject (with bonuses and maluses for each choice). Rejections may lead to excommunication and such, and this was pretty good at simulating the frequent conflicts between Church and State during the Middle Ages (e.g., Investiture Controversy, which may have actually had a unique event for it for the 1066 start).

2. Unique cultural mechanics - this was unfortunately only partially implemented (Idib was adding them incrementally IIRC), but, for example you had unique laws/reforms (instituted via decision) for certain kingdoms. So, as was stated earlier in the thread, the kingdom of England (if Norman or English) will get the English peerage system. Italy had the conflict between the Guelphs and Ghibellines, and there may have been others, I don't recall.

 

[mgr251]

King, for 2 I was referring to the non landed historical characters that would appear in your court given an event. As far as 5 goes TheOx hit the nail on the head also the papal reform aspect. As to 8 in TPATT you could without papal consent or any relative permission or reason attack a non christian ruler and claim all the titles within the given duchy you were claiming as part of a de jure holy war. For historically accurate COAs all the devs need to do for European ones at least is hit up this site http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm it is a major resource and I haven't found any reference to it on forum so hopefully I have provided some buried treasure. Arko why do you not allow people to quarter or per pale etc... their coat of arms in the design feature, yours is the only mod that effectively destroys this feature, also why have you removed the majority of historical COAs from the generator/designer feature, while it is the best mod of its type remaining why not make it better?

 

[Arko]

For historically accurate COAs all the devs need to do for European ones at least is hit up this site http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm it is a major resource and I haven't found any reference to it on forum so hopefully I have provided some buried treasure. Arko why do you not allow people to quarter or per pale etc... their coat of arms in the design feature, yours is the only mod that effectively destroys this feature, also why have you removed the majority of historical COAs from the generator/designer feature, while it is the best mod of its type remaining why not make it better?

-it is a source i know but it includes a lot of fantasy arms, to use with caution
-quartering and such is nice in RD, but if allowed in RD, it is allowed in game, and the game is just unable to make anything acceptable with that. apart from this i would have no reason not allow this.

For historically accurate COAs all the devs need to do for European ones at least is hit up this site http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm it is a major resource and I haven't found any reference to it on forum so hopefully I have provided some buried treasure. Arko why do you not allow people to quarter or per pale etc... their coat of arms in the design feature, yours is the only mod that effectively destroys this feature, also why have you removed the majority of historical COAs from the generator/designer feature, while it is the best mod of its type remaining why not make it better?

What are you refering to (bold part) ?

 

[theKing1988]

King, for 2 I was referring to the non landed historical characters that would appear in your court given an event. As far as 5 goes TheOx hit the nail on the head also the papal reform aspect. As to 8 in TPATT you could without papal consent or any relative permission or reason attack a non christian ruler and claim all the titles within the given duchy you were claiming as part of a de jure holy war. For historically accurate COAs all the devs need to do for European ones at least is hit up this site http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm it is a major resource and I haven't found any reference to it on forum so hopefully I have provided some buried treasure. Arko why do you not allow people to quarter or per pale etc... their coat of arms in the design feature, yours is the only mod that effectively destroys this feature, also why have you removed the majority of historical COAs from the generator/designer feature, while it is the best mod of its type remaining why not make it better?

I'm pretty sure that will not be included in SWMH, i can tell you that much. Also i'm not sure why that degree of historical determinism would be desirable. When you press play in 1066, there should not be a guarantee that Ertrugul (the father of Osman, the founder of the Ottomans) shows up at the Seljuk court in Konya 165 years later, and the Sultan then lands him in the area just north of Eskisehir imo. Just to use an example

King, for 2 I was referring to the non landed historical characters that would appear in your court given an event. As far as 5 goes TheOx hit the nail on the head also the papal reform aspect. As to 8 in TPATT you could without papal consent or any relative permission or reason attack a non christian ruler and claim all the titles within the given duchy you were claiming as part of a de jure holy war. For historically accurate COAs all the devs need to do for European ones at least is hit up this site http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm it is a major resource and I haven't found any reference to it on forum so hopefully I have provided some buried treasure. Arko why do you not allow people to quarter or per pale etc... their coat of arms in the design feature, yours is the only mod that effectively destroys this feature, also why have you removed the majority of historical COAs from the generator/designer feature, while it is the best mod of its type remaining why not make it better?

I would really hate to see that implemented in any of the HIP modules. The AI would abuse the CB to no end then and so would the player. I like the limitations that the HIP modules put on the Holy War CB. Even though they may feel a bit arbitrary now, the way that the CB would be used if they weren't there would be way more ahistorical.

 

[SignedName]

I'm pretty sure that will not be included in SWMH, i can tell you that much. Also i'm not sure why that degree of historical determinism would be desirable. When you press play in 1066, there should not be a guarantee that Ertrugul (the father of Osman, the founder of the Ottomans) shows up at the Seljuk court in Konya 165 years later, and the Sultan then lands him in the area just north of Eskisehir imo. Just to use an example

Isn't this exactly how Seljuk works now? Why would an event chain for Osman's rise be any less reasonable?

 

[theKing1988]

Isn't this exactly how Seljuk works now? Why would an event chain for Osman's rise be any less reasonable?

He is not suggesting an event chain for Osman's rise. He is suggesting a lot of events that makes historical characters show up at courts, more or less every game i would assume. I just mentioned Ertrugul because i'm doing the Anatolia and Greece overhauls for SWMH and because of the research i have been doing he was the first character that fullfilled the criteria that popped into my head.

And i'm not against an event chain that portrays the rise of the Ottomans per se. But it should have A LOT of requirements built into it.

It requires less circumstances to be fullfilled for a Turkic tribe to rise up on the steppes and invade their neighbouring realms there than it does for a Turkic clan to migrate to Anatolia, that is controlled by Turks that didn't get defeated at Manzikert and who managed to take much of Anatolia without being thrown out again, that the realms on their way would allow them to pass and that they didn't decide to settle in them/invade them instead. They would then have to arrive at a friendly court, if not they would be an adventurer invasion instead. And then the ruler would have to have problems in his Northwestern border areas that these newcomers would be the perfect tools for him to use to try and deal with it.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Calantyr]

4. Calantyr has already created a sub-mod that you can run alongside HIP that adds parts of, or all of the templar system

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?774350-Sub-Mod-Thematic-Additions

Thanks for the plug.

I got permission from the Prince and the Thane mod creators to use this part of the mod, and I'll be expanding on it in future. I also wanted to re-appropriate most of the rest of the mod but it is a HUGE effort. If the original creators agree to let you, good luck.

 

[theKing1988]

Thanks for the plug.

I got permission from the Prince and the Thane mod creators to use this part of the mod, and I'll be expanding on it in future. I also wanted to re-appropriate most of the rest of the mod but it is a HUGE effort. If the original creators agree to let you, good luck.

None of the HIP modders are planning on cannibalizing any part of TPATT at moment as far as i'm aware.

But i will probably try out your submod soon.

 

[TheOx129]

He is not suggesting an event chain for Osman's rise. He is suggesting a lot of events that makes historical characters show up at courts, more or less every game i would assume. I just mentioned Ertrugul because i'm doing the Anatolia and Greece overhauls for SWMH and because of the research i have been doing he was the first character that fullfilled the criteria that popped into my head.

The historical characters that were generated weren't political figures/dynastic founders IIRC, but instead were famous philosophers/merchants/ministers/etc. For example, if you controlled the proper provinces in say, England or Africa, you'd get William of Ockham or Ibn Khaldun showing up at your court, respectively. I can still see why you'd be against such a degree of determinism, but the generated characters were almost never landed by the AI (from what I recall, at least), they were just there to add some flavor to your court.

 

[khardinal]

Great news.

 

[mgr251]

oh I see the game would generate a bunch of dumb COAs what if you make an optional submob that allows those of us that would take the time to design each of the individual ones within our game, at least for our own subjects? Oh the historical COA pack of all the ones there you can't edit any major historical COAs like Plantagenet and Capet or perhaps the 3 flour de lis of the house of Bourbon, the main German and Spanish etc (I use them to edit cadet dynasty COAs as ruler so my bastards look nicer). I do like all the animal figure GOAs they are very elegant. King there was a very high piety cost and piety multiplier that discouraged the AI from doing so as to the Holy War feature.