can zombies be assimilated by synth ascended?

[qer]

.

Ever since the admin rework, you don't want your upkeep economy within your own empire- the sprawl is inefficient, compared to getting even fewer resources but less sprawl. This was true even before Overlord, when bilateral CG/strategic resource trading was the best way to get basic resources, but it's even more true in Overlord. The advantage of subjects isn't 'you get more resources than you'd produce yourself'- it's 'you get resources with less sprawl that lets you produce more yourself,' along with 'you can employ more of your pops as specialists and not workers.' A higher % of specialists with lower sprawl is better than a higher # of pops with more sprawl. Specialist employment, not overall pop numbers, is the key.

I think you are overstating the advantages of Ai vassals. Even on Starnet which has a good build order I find that annexing vassals will lead to a stronger empire than leaving then be, even with the Ai bonus in play. Also considering how empire sprawl will mostly come from pops, as long as you have an efficient build you will get stronger the bigger you get.

 

[currylambchop]

Or I could just... reform my government into not being a megacorp. Masterful crafters + Technocracy + Meritocracy, and then integrate subjects for a pittance in influence to turn their worlds into massive warrens of laboratories and factories.

inagine Integrating subjects and having to micro all the AI’s horribly managed worlds

 

[taltamir]

I don't want to make a new thread, but what's the best way to utilize Permanent Employment? I know most would say to use zombies to work spammed clerk jobs, but I can't say my Megacorps really *need* extra trade with branches to consider. Wouldn't zombies not have a purpose come mid-game?

pop is pop. let them do anything they can.
settle any planet you can to print more of them. since pop growth depends on planet count. and economy depends on pop count.

ultimately though, the best use of them is fodder for the best ascension.
Technological ascension lets you convert all zombies into your main pop
Unfortunately the two systems are incompatible so you need to drop that civic once you tech ascend so that all your planets switch over to machine pop assembly.

 

[taltamir]

inagine Integrating subjects and having to micro all the AI’s horribly managed worlds

You don't have to micro all those worlds. Automation exists. it is not very good, but under performing planets are better than no planets at all. you still get many benefits from all of them.
Plus assimilating them into synths massively improves them.

Be fanatic materialists and now all the pops love you too, so you get great stability from that. (and get rid of the horrible stab penalties from those whose ethics disagree with you).

100% habitability for all planets and replacing bad species bonuses/maluses for the best designed species is good too.

 

[currylambchop]

You don't have to micro all those worlds. Automation exists. it is not very good, but under performing planets are better than no planets at all. you still get many benefits from all of them.
Plus assimilating them into synths massively improves them.

Be fanatic materialists and now all the pops love you too, so you get great stability from that. (and get rid of the horrible stab penalties from those whose ethics disagree with you).

100% habitability for all planets and replacing bad species bonuses/maluses for the best designed species is good too.

turning an AI into a tributary is better than automating a sector, they're both controlled by the ai anyway and ai has cheats so its stronger, especially taking into account branch offices and holdings

 

[DeanTheDull]

I don't want to make a new thread, but what's the best way to utilize Permanent Employment? I know most would say to use zombies to work spammed clerk jobs, but I can't say my Megacorps really *need* extra trade with branches to consider.

You don't do trade builds for the energy, but for the TV conversion to CG (and unity), which is done at very efficient for low-habitability levels while empowering your science/specialist economy with CG to work on high-habitability levels. Branches only provide energy, and whatever the branch office building offers.

Clerks and Merchants are functionally replacements for artisans and miners on the worlds where miners and artisans don't make sense. The energy is more of the side-effect that renders technicians irrelevant as well for building upkeep of said supecialists. They're still upkeep jobs that don't go obsolete until you don't need the CG or minerals for those CG... but by that point, you generally don't need miners or technicians eithers due to your tributes.

Wouldn't zombies not have a purpose come mid-game?

Soldiers for more fleet capacity, move-pops to boost planets to the next capital upgrade tier (for more rulers/building slots/capital efficiency bonuses), and amenities on worlds where 2 clerks can support 8 pops to maximize planetary job output.

 

[zZander56]

Soldiers for more fleet capacity, move-pops to boost planets to the next capital upgrade tier (for more rulers/building slots/capital efficiency bonuses), and amenities on worlds where 2 clerks can support 8 pops to maximize planetary job output.

All good options. Still, I can't help but feel that robots are just all around better. Zombies just can't compete in terms of production when workers are less relevant as the game goes on. They do have the advantage of being cheaper all around though. I really wish there was some sort of special project or research option allowing them to take select specialist jobs. This could be enabled by the ascension paths for example, as cybernetic enhancements/bio enhancements/psionics all conceptually work for more complex zombies.

 

[taltamir]

turning an AI into a tributary is better than automating a sector, they're both controlled by the ai anyway and ai has cheats so its stronger, especially taking into account branch offices and holdings

This is simply incorrect.
1. vassal AIs do not have cheats. they crash and burn into bankruptcy. the moment you vassalize them is the moment their death spiral starts due to losing their cheats
2. even if they still had the cheats, they would still be very inferior in terms of using fleets
3. vastly more diplomatic weight from integrating them compared to just keeping them as vassals with limited diplomacy (because now they get all your multiplicative bonuses)
4. the increase in unity production largely mitigated by the increase in unity cost (it still slows you down a little though... assuming you focus on science over unity)
5. the increase in research production overtakes the increase in cost to research tech. so it is still a net gain to your tech up speed.
6. they might have some cool things you could grab, such as dig sites, damaged megastructures, or special worlds (ecu and relic). You could claim them individually, but it is very expensive to do so and has to be done before you vassalize them.
7. you get a big injections of fleet capacity via all their anchorage starbases. (scrap the rest of their starbases). And sometimes even some useful starships.
8. tribute is split into 4 different categories (science, base resources, adv resources, strategic resources) and raised in small 15% increments, and you must raise it bit by bit over many renegotiations, paying ruinous amounts of influence every time. Much better to take everything all at once.
9. as a tributary, it will eventually on its own against your will just transform into a useless bulwark. where suddenly you are forced to pay THEM basic resources for the privilege's of them building useless outdated starbases and fleets. And there is nothing you can do to stop it.

It is vastly more profitable to integrate a vassal than to keep it as a tributary.

However, do keep a few vassals with the middle option for expansion as a source of influence (as you "tax" their influence)

The biggest drawback, really. is that they often fail to build space roads, and for some inexplicable reason those cost influence.

 

[klopkr]

Oh I can make some cybermen out of the dead.

 

[zZander56]

Oh I can make some cybermen out of the dead.

This is exactly what I want. Being able to upgrade zombies would be great.

 

[DeanTheDull]

All good options. Still, I can't help but feel that robots are just all around better. Zombies just can't compete in terms of production when workers are less relevant as the game goes on.

Specialist, obviously, but the worker production is a 'true, but so what?' in the context of megacorps. Not only do MegaCorps not need help with basic resources- branch offices provide way too much energy to convert to basic resources via market and trade- but MegaCorps don't want to be doing basic resource jobs, because those are among the most sprawl-inefficient jobs (2 per district) in an a build that has a 25% penalty from sprawls.

The most sprawl efficient upkeep economy model is a trade build based on urban districts, and robots not only have no advantage in the upkeep zone, but an active disadvantage in their lack of Thrifty and actually paying upkeep resources.

They do have the advantage of being cheaper all around though.

Not just cheaper- earlier and far faster, and without a significant delay to war potential due to alloy and tech investments.

Robots are stuck at about 2.3 assembly for most of the relevant game once you get to robo-modding, but homeworld zombies will start at 2.5 if you mix budding, can get a flat +1 with death cult bounty sacrifices, another +3 with bio-assembly, and 10% to all those base numbers per medical worker, who becomes a lot more viable when your zombie clerks are sharing the amenity production roles. The only tech investment for boosting these numbers is for the gene clinics, as opposed to spending 2 engineering tech cycles to maximize robot production without even boosting job outputs.

Robots are never a 1-for-1 comparison with zombie, but a 1-for-1+X. Number of pops is far more important than quality, and for the jobs zombies support best- trade builds and fleet-boosting soldiers- zombies are actually superior to robots.

I really wish there was some sort of special project or research option allowing them to take select specialist jobs. This could be enabled by the ascension paths for example, as cybernetic enhancements/bio enhancements/psionics all conceptually work for more complex zombies.

Honestly, they're already overpowered.

 

[taltamir]

All good options. Still, I can't help but feel that robots are just all around better. Zombies just can't compete in terms of production when workers are less relevant as the game goes on. They do have the advantage of being cheaper all around though. I really wish there was some sort of special project or research option allowing them to take select specialist jobs. This could be enabled by the ascension paths for example, as cybernetic enhancements/bio enhancements/psionics all conceptually work for more complex zombies.

if you take cybernetics then you are locked into machine ascension.
when you ascend all your robots get converted into true ascended pops

Not just cheaper- earlier and far faster, and without a significant delay to war potential due to alloy and tech investments.

Robots are stuck at about 2.3 assembly for most of the relevant game once you get to robo-modding, but homeworld zombies will start at 2.5 if you mix budding, can get a flat +1 with death cult bounty sacrifices, another +3 with bio-assembly, and 10% to all those base numbers per medical worker, who becomes a lot more viable when your zombie clerks are sharing the amenity production roles. The only tech investment for boosting these numbers is for the gene clinics, as opposed to spending 2 engineering tech cycles to maximize robot production without even boosting job outputs.

Robots are never a 1-for-1 comparison with zombie, but a 1-for-1+X. Number of pops is far more important than quality, and for the jobs zombies support best- trade builds and fleet-boosting soldiers- zombies are actually superior to robots.

Additionally, assembly cost is lower for zombies compared to robots

 

[zZander56]

Specialist, obviously, but the worker production is a 'true, but so what?' in the context of megacorps. Not only do MegaCorps not need help with basic resources- branch offices provide way too much energy to convert to basic resources via market and trade- but MegaCorps don't want to be doing basic resource jobs, because those are among the most sprawl-inefficient jobs (2 per district) in an a build that has a 25% penalty from sprawls.

The most sprawl efficient upkeep economy model is a trade build based on urban districts, and robots not only have no advantage in the upkeep zone, but an active disadvantage in their lack of Thrifty and actually paying upkeep resources.




Not just cheaper- earlier and far faster, and without a significant delay to war potential due to alloy and tech investments.

Robots are stuck at about 2.3 assembly for most of the relevant game once you get to robo-modding, but homeworld zombies will start at 2.5 if you mix budding, can get a flat +1 with death cult bounty sacrifices, another +3 with bio-assembly, and 10% to all those base numbers per medical worker, who becomes a lot more viable when your zombie clerks are sharing the amenity production roles. The only tech investment for boosting these numbers is for the gene clinics, as opposed to spending 2 engineering tech cycles to maximize robot production without even boosting job outputs.

Robots are never a 1-for-1 comparison with zombie, but a 1-for-1+X. Number of pops is far more important than quality, and for the jobs zombies support best- trade builds and fleet-boosting soldiers- zombies are actually superior to robots.





Honestly, they're already overpowered.

Zombies are specifically good for clerk jobs. Later in the game, the need for clerks (or any workers) falls a ton and the number of zombies rises. Energy is obviously a non-issue, and consumer goods are usually in abundance between branch office buildings and Merchants. Amenities, similarly, also become extremely easy to produce using Executive Retreats and a small amount of amenity jobs.

Sure, I *could* dedicate all or most of my pop assembly to these things, but I can get them from other sources while also bolstering my specialist count. Sometime during the mid-game, the role zombies play becomes unnecessary, and then you're left with a massive useless workforce. (Not to say that no clerk jobs should be worked, but the number of zombies will vastly outnumber the number of clerks you actually need if you dedicate to their production.)

Zombies are good in the early game when raw bodies are needed for cheap, but once you're comfortable robots (or even clones) become the superior option for preparing for the future when the lower class essentially stops existing. Yeah, you can get a higher assembly speed for zombies, but they won't do anything for you that you're not already outsourcing to branches/subjects.

 

[zZander56]

take cybernetics then you are locked into machine ascension.
when you ascend all your robots get converted into true ascended pops

Good point, but not really the fun option tbh.

Synth ascension doesn't really add anything to the fun or flavor of zombies, it just converts them like it does all other pops. Not to mention, once ascension is done, there's no longer a reason to produce any zombies. You also have the problem of this only being an option for those specifically looking to synth ascend. Psionics and Bio Ascension both have strong conceptual/mechanical connections to zombies (Sacrifical corps/general necromancy for psionics, Bio Ascension being the best way to expand their production), but neither have the option to expand their use.

Not to say that zombie enhancement really needs to be tied to ascension paths.

This would better be served by some sort of special project being available x number of years into the game. This could do something as simple as expanding the use of zombies to select specialist jobs while possibly raising their upkeep.

Also, it would be nice to be able to sell zombies on the market as if they were robots (as in not needing slavery) It's a minor thing, but seems appropriate for the theme of the civic.

 

[taltamir]

Good point, but not really the fun option tbh.

that is too, it was very boring and bland. felt like I completely ruined my undead empire

Zombies are specifically good for clerk jobs. Later in the game, the need for clerks (or any workers) falls a ton and the number of zombies rises. Energy is obviously a non-issue, and consumer goods are usually in abundance between branch office buildings and Merchants. Amenities, similarly, also become extremely easy to produce using Executive Retreats and a small amount of amenity jobs.

Sure, I *could* dedicate all or most of my pop assembly to these things, but I can get them from other sources while also bolstering my specialist count. Sometime during the mid-game, the role zombies play becomes unnecessary, and then you're left with a massive useless workforce. (Not to say that no clerk jobs should be worked, but the number of zombies will vastly outnumber the number of clerks you actually need if you dedicate to their production.)

Zombies are good in the early game when raw bodies are needed for cheap, but once you're comfortable robots (or even clones) become the superior option for preparing for the future when the lower class essentially stops existing. Yeah, you can get a higher assembly speed for zombies, but they won't do anything for you that you're not already outsourcing to branches/subjects.

Make zombies do all the farming and mining and energy production too.
yes they get a penalty for it, but you can make up for it with numbers. while all your other pops do specialist and better jobs.

 

[zZander56]

Make zombies do all the farming and mining and energy production too.
yes they get a penalty for it, but you can make up for it with numbers. while all your other pops do specialist and better jobs.

Well, starting sometime in the mid-game, my empire doesn't really call for any of those jobs. I'll usually have a dedicated mining planet, but that fills up pretty quickly. Aside from that, basic resources either get outsourced to branches/subjects, or come from space and trade, or get bought on the market.

 

[currylambchop]

1. vassal AIs do not have cheats. they crash and burn into bankruptcy. the moment you vassalize them is the moment their death spiral starts due to losing their cheats

you're using outdated data they have cheats since overlord

9. as a tributary, it will eventually on its own against your will just transform into a useless bulwark. where suddenly you are forced to pay THEM basic resources for the privilege's of them building useless outdated starbases and fleets. And there is nothing you can do to stop it.

I mean thats outright wrong, never happened to me and i use vassals most of the time
you can refuse a contract change suggestion you know

 

[DeanTheDull]

Zombies are specifically good for clerk jobs. Later in the game, the need for clerks (or any workers) falls a ton and the number of zombies rises. Energy is obviously a non-issue, and consumer goods are usually in abundance between branch office buildings and Merchants. Amenities, similarly, also become extremely easy to produce using Executive Retreats and a small amount of amenity jobs.

Sure, but this is just the point where you'd normally be swapping worker pops to soldier jobs anyway for late-game power naval capacity and power projection, which you can use to bully more empires and conquer/abduct more pops and otherwise throw your weight around.

The value of pops isn't in their late-game productivity, but their ability to facilitate the aquistion of more pops. Whether the early-game support economy, econ-by-mass to afford the slave market, or soldiers to conquer more pops, zombies facilitate the aquisition of more pops.

Sure, I *could* dedicate all or most of my pop assembly to these things, but I can get them from other sources while also bolstering my specialist count. Sometime during the mid-game, the role zombies play becomes unnecessary, and then you're left with a massive useless workforce. (Not to say that no clerk jobs should be worked, but the number of zombies will vastly outnumber the number of clerks you actually need if you dedicate to their production.)

Again, Soldiers, slave market,s and that early-game specialist enabling.

Also, in the context of a megacorp, released sector vassals. If for some reason your sprawl concerns are such that you want/need 0 pops, zombies make fine filler material for released microvassals to use as their non-boosted upkeep. This is especially useful for any later-game Scholarium, where the trade build they inherit means the released zombies provide for the growing scientists for your tribute.

Zombies are good in the early game when raw bodies are needed for cheap, but once you're comfortable robots (or even clones) become the superior option for preparing for the future when the lower class essentially stops existing. Yeah, you can get a higher assembly speed for zombies, but they won't do anything for you that you're not already outsourcing to branches/subjects.

What it does is the most important thing- get you to the point where the lower class essentially stops existing, which is also the point where you can conquer everything else, at which point you have all the pops and have won the game. Catalysts for winning the game are still winning the game for you.

Just as megacorps don't need to build all their own branch offices to own all the branch offices, you don't need to grow (or assemble) all your own pops to conquer all the pops. If zombies help you grow faster, employ more scientists earlier, and win more wars more often, it doesn't matter if they're pop-for-pop inferior to late-game robots, you've already beaten the people who relied on robots in the first place.

 

[taltamir]

you're using outdated data they have cheats since overlord

huh. well that is good to know. I guess the reason they are falling so far behind is that they are so braindead then.

I mean thats outright wrong, never happened to me and i use vassals most of the time
you can refuse a contract change suggestion you know

it happened to me 3 or 4 times by now. and there was no contract suggestion. I was just told "this vassal is now a bulwark"