Can you think of a way Japan could have successfully invaded the US mainland?

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joak

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Remember this is a one way suicide mission, the only logistical challenge is killing everyone in LA before the divisions starved to death (if the demands for negotiated peace were not met by the Americans).

How long are they negotiating for? A few hours? They think they are going to say "Gotcha!" and Roosevelt will say "Yup, got us good" and not even try a counterattack?

What was the population of LA in the early 1940s? Had to be at least a hundred thousand.

Looking it up, it was already over a million. Backwater I used to mean to far from the centers of power and culture, not it being uninhabited. But this strikes me as one of the problems with thinking the plan is logistically reasonable . . . if you go hiking on the coast or hills along the Pacific today, they are dotted with old watch points made of concrete bunkers from WWII days. It wasn't an undefended area.

I don't see a President allowing 100,000 American hostages to be killed just so the dutch and british could keep Asian empires.

But this statement, not the logistical one, is the one I really disagree with. The logistics of mounting a one-way civilian execution force is not really something I've seriously considered, maybe you can make it work. The readiness of Americans to fold--no.

In their minds Americans were opposing Nazi and Japanese tyranny, and to avenge Pearl Harbor. The threat to kill civilians would *not* lead anyone to give up--it would completely reinforce their belief that they were facing barely human savages. The invaders would be defeated, Americans would look at the burnt out city at the edge of their country and feel totally justified in whatever it took to ensure that they couldn't be threatened like that again.
 

eleinvisible

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I have discovered a method by which Japan could have successfully invaded the US mainland after Pearl Harbor.

The American admirals panic and scuttle all their remaining ships. Then the American populace, embarrassed by their admirals' stupidity, kills themselves. Then and only then could Japan invade the US, successfully, while fighting in China.
 

Fishman786

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germany collapsed like water against a unbreakable luxembourgian schuster line and consequent relentless luxembourgian counter-attack, as dozens of thousands of german troops were surrounded and destroyed, with luxembourgs population soon to be outnumbered several times by german pows.

Reinforced by french troops, luxembourgian's 400 neo-spartans making a daring push towards wilhelmshaven, crushing all resistance and entrapping the vast majority of german's army in the low lands.

German okw orders a breakout to the east, but though scattered, sections of around 10 luxembourgian troops succeed singlehandedly in wiping out entire german divisions at key checkpoints who the german okw never expected such a stiff resistance could be made.

With the german invasion army utterly wiped out, allied politicians and generals pushed for an invasion under their oversight. Minister of defence perre dupong warned that only a luxembourger-led invasion would have the approval of luxembourg. Laughed away by paul reynard and winston churchill, along with their respective high commands, the allied armies proceeded to engage in a general offensive, with british troops landing in the netherlands and the atlantic coast of germany, while french troops advanced north through the low lands with the intention of circumventing the southern part of the siegfried line.

It was a bad decision. Luxembourger troops allowed the british armies to establish a beachhead, but soon enough a force of 50 attacked the resupplying british, only a paltry force escaped to the netherlands, with the luxembourgers the entire bef prisoner. Churchill called it "the worst british defeat in history". The british were out of the war, at least for the time being. Likewise, the french occupying forces in germany were quickly surrounded and destroyed by around 200 troops, while the french troops moving through luxembourg were likewise crushed and pushed back south. After a couple of engagements between belgian troops who advanced to luxembourg were beaten back, both countries dared not support any allied attack on luxembourg.

Leaving roughly 200 holding luxembourg and the rhineland all the way to bremen, the other half of the luxembourger army engaged in a general offensive towards berlin, with the german forces that didn't melt away and desert were quickly destroyed. Soon germany was in shambles, with strikes and general dissent happening everywhere. After occupying magdesburg, luxembourger troops divided their army in half, with the new destination being vienna. The large territory being covered needed a garrison, so luxembourger authorities put their large population of german pows to work as occupying forces. Immediately the luxembourgers were cheered and hailed as liberators from nazi oppression. Upon entering berlin, the occupying army revolted and arrested hitler, and pleaded to work for luxembourg. By then, luxembourger southern forces had reached munich, with no resistance. Negotiation with the new german authorities came to an end. The provisional fuhrer of germany, alfred jodl, agreed to an armistice and immediate integration of germany into luxembourg. The luxembourger troops that arrived in vienna were greeted as heroes. Luxembourg authorities set about to restore the independence and sovereignty of the post-munich czech state, along with a polish state with the pre-ww2 borders, as far as the german side was concerned. Luxembourg authorities declared that the soviet invasion of eastern poland was a matter that wasn't of luxembourgish concern, and should be brought up and solved by the soon independent polish authorities, alongside other concerned states, to the soviet union.

Now with a large army to boot, luxembourg left 50 luxembourger troops spread out across the new luxembourger states, and brought the rest back. The luxembouger army then demanded the immediate surrender of the belgian and dutch governments, as they were integral parts of the old luxembourger possessions, with the addition that their very culture were a part of the luxembourger family. Both governments, pressured by the western allies refused. But a combination of large scale riots and popular uprisings alongside the advance of the luxembourger army there made both governments relent. Dutch and belgian armies then began fighting the french allies, as both monarchs petitioned for their territories to be annexed to luxembourg, and for their demotions to nobility of lower rank. For their quick surrender, charlotte of luxembourg demoted wilhelmina of the netherlands and leopold of belgium just to counts of schiermonnikoog and oudenaarde respectively.

Luxembourger troops advanced on the french troops still on the lowlands and quickly destroyed most of them, and proceeded to turn south. French efforts faltered and collapsed as the luxembourger armies won victory after victory. Paul reynard resigned and was replaced by marshal petain, a very luxembourgphil, who under the pressure of the population as usual, aceded and requested an armistice and annexation to luxembourg, which was duly conceded. With luxembourg now dominating europe, and the reason for the war now partially amended, churchill was highly pressured in parliament to sign an armistice with luxembourg. He steadfastly refused and was defeated in a motion of no confidence, and replaced with lord halifax, who with the british king's blessings signed an armistice with the luxembourger duchy. Soon enough luxembougers and british were cooperating to overcome the soviets, who steadfastly refused to let go of their militaristic conquests.





Is this less realistic than a japanese invasion of the us?
potm.
 

Yakman

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The threat to kill civilians would *not* lead anyone to give up--it would completely reinforce their belief that they were facing barely human savages. The invaders would be defeated, Americans would look at the burnt out city at the edge of their country and feel totally justified in whatever it took to ensure that they couldn't be threatened like that again.
SO LONG as I live, I hope to never tire of anti-Japanese WW2 American Propaganda.

It is so horrible... it's like butter.

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Eusebio

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SO LONG as I live, I hope to never tire of anti-Japanese WW2 American Propaganda.

Yeah...it's...err...hilarious? :wacko:
 

krieger11b

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The National Guard units near the coast with a sudden increase of it's size with a surge of volunteers that could supply their own weapons and ammuntion if needed would be a complete blood bath for any remotely realistic Japanese invasion force. There is almost no way that the Japanese have anything bigger than motars and very light artillery at hand.

They would have some naval support, assuming that Japan destroys every ship in Pearl Harbor and somehow defeats a rather large force of well supplied US Marines and Army personel on that Island so they could even have to launching base to even get to the USA. There would still be the fleets still at San Diego and San Francisco to deal with. Plus what air assests were on the West Coast at the time. Their unfathomably streched supply lines would be juicy targets for US submarines.

Finally after Japan fails to take a West Coast port they lose the entire invasion fleet as they did not have the range for a 3000 mile round trip plus fuel intensive military engagements.


The real problem outside of range for Japanese logistics was their rather small merchant marine and naval supply ships, it was a tiny fraction of the US shipping. Plus Japan oddly enough for a Navy that planned on having a large area to cover never adopted the ability to supply a fleet underway like the US had mastered.
 

Yakman

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joak

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not hilarious, as much as fascinatingly disturbing.

I've seen some before but that's quite impressive. "So solly" indeed.
 

Easy-Kill

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The National Guard units near the coast with a sudden increase of it's size with a surge of volunteers that could supply their own weapons and ammuntion if needed would be a complete blood bath for any remotely realistic Japanese invasion force. There is almost no way that the Japanese have anything bigger than motars and very light artillery at hand.

They would have some naval support, assuming that Japan destroys every ship in Pearl Harbor and somehow defeats a rather large force of well supplied US Marines and Army personel on that Island so they could even have to launching base to even get to the USA. There would still be the fleets still at San Diego and San Francisco to deal with. Plus what air assests were on the West Coast at the time. Their unfathomably streched supply lines would be juicy targets for US submarines.

Finally after Japan fails to take a West Coast port they lose the entire invasion fleet as they did not have the range for a 3000 mile round trip plus fuel intensive military engagements.


The real problem outside of range for Japanese logistics was their rather small merchant marine and naval supply ships, it was a tiny fraction of the US shipping. Plus Japan oddly enough for a Navy that planned on having a large area to cover never adopted the ability to supply a fleet underway like the US had mastered.

Just a quick point. Why would Americans be more likely to openly resist/revolt when all of the other nations under Japanese (and German) occupation did not?
 

gagenater

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Just a quick point. Why would Americans be more likely to openly resist/revolt when all of the other nations under Japanese (and German) occupation did not?

Because the Japanese would not have troops on the entire territory of the U.S. A landing on a small area of land on one coast is nowhere even close to occupying the United States. It would be more like the German invasion of the USSR or the Japanese invasion of China but with amuch smaller attacking force and a larger better equipped defending force. No matter what they do for the US forces there's always another position to fall back to, more reinforcements coming, and more supplies coming. The Japanese could land their entire armed forces on the west coast in a week, keep them properly supported by a miracle and still loose this fight.
 

gagenater

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Just a quick point. Why would Americans be more likely to openly resist/revolt when all of the other nations under Japanese (and German) occupation did not?

Because the Japanese would not have troops on the entire territory of the U.S. A landing on a small area of land on one coast is nowhere even close to occupying the United States. It would be more like the German invasion of the USSR or the Japanese invasion of China but with amuch smaller attacking force and a larger better equipped defending force. No matter what they do for the US forces there's always another position to fall back to, more reinforcements coming, and more supplies coming. The Japanese could land their entire armed forces on the west coast in a week, keep them properly supported by a miracle and still loose this fight.
 

toroltao

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Ya. Conquer China. Industrialize China. Use manpower to conquer US.
 

Easy-Kill

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Because the Japanese would not have troops on the entire territory of the U.S. A landing on a small area of land on one coast is nowhere even close to occupying the United States. It would be more like the German invasion of the USSR or the Japanese invasion of China but with amuch smaller attacking force and a larger better equipped defending force. No matter what they do for the US forces there's always another position to fall back to, more reinforcements coming, and more supplies coming. The Japanese could land their entire armed forces on the west coast in a week, keep them properly supported by a miracle and still loose this fight.

Oh I absolutely agree with this and the entire lack of feasibility in the original premise.

I should have highlighted this better, but I was principally questioning how a lightly armed, poorly trained and even more poorly coordinated militia/insurgency is any more likely to succeed in the USA than in any other nation where it actually occurred. History has shown time and time again that in conventional conflict, the lightly armed and poorly coordinated insurgents are unable to resist traditional warfare (albeit are very successful at striking occupying forces).
 

Kovax

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Ya. Conquer China. Industrialize China. Use manpower to conquer US.
....about 10,000 troops at a time, due to the extreme transport and supply issues. It's POSSIBLE that Japan could have invaded the US mainland with a few thousand troops. It's NOT possible that they could have gotten, and then held, a foothold long enough to return all the way to occupied Hawaii for more troops to reinforce the invasion.

The initial landing would not include heavy weapons or artillery, not that the Japanese had all that much to spare. The US would be using land-based air, armor, and artillery to hit the landing zone, and the fleet conducting the landing. I can't see it ending well for the Japanese.
 

Nicophorus

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That's why I said the only point or feasible goal for such a landing would be to occupy a single city and then hold it's population hostage for favorable terms of peace.

But everyone here says the American President would allow 500,000 civilians in LA to be mustard gassed by the suicide IJA expedition before negotiating so...
 

gagenater

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That's why I said the only point or feasible goal for such a landing would be to occupy a single city and then hold it's population hostage for favorable terms of peace.

But everyone here says the American President would allow 500,000 civilians in LA to be mustard gassed by the suicide IJA expedition before negotiating so...

The U.S. wouldn't allow it. It would avenge it. We would try to save the people being held hostage. Then regardless of if that was successful or not we would get revenge. Think of the U.S. response after Al Queda attacked on 9/11. Then multiply by 200 and throw in the factor that the general public already believed that the Japanese were subhumans and a generally racist outlook on the world around it and you have every ingredient necessary for a wholesale genocide on a scale that would make the Nazi's look like a set of retail amateurs. What makes you think for a moment that such a strategy by the Japanese would work? I mean it's never worked before in the history of human warfare. Why would it be different for them?