Can you think of a way Japan could have successfully invaded the US mainland?

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Andre Bolkonsky

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I can't. Maybe you can? Success is not invading the while country, just enough to force Washington to concede to Japanese aims in Asia and the pacific.

How on earth could you get a decent supply line running?

One word answer: no. Four word answer, no way in hell.

Could they land early in the war, yes, but they lacked the power to push inland. They'd be decimated on the beaches, and the well armed population would hunt them down like dogs.

The US took Pearl Harbor as a national outrage, actual Japanese landing on the American mainland would result in something like a Jihad with nuclear weapons. Oh wait, they got that just for bombing Pearl.
 

Nicophorus

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I always wondered "what if":

Japan goes through with the equivalent of "pearl harbor #2" and does a long range one-way invasion of a major American population center, say a big city in California. And then, proceeded to hold the entire civilian population under their control hostage. Agree to Japanese demands in Asia or slaughter/gas attack/etc several hundred thousand Americans.

It would be a hell of a gamble, sacrificing a navy and several divisions to take some populated territory in California, but would Washington negotiate a peace to save the population of say, San Diego or Portland? hmm
 

joak

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I always wondered "what if":

Japan goes through with the equivalent of "pearl harbor #2" and does a long range one-way invasion of a major American population center, say a big city in California. And then, proceeded to hold the entire civilian population under their control hostage. Agree to Japanese demands in Asia or slaughter/gas attack/etc several hundred thousand Americans.

It would be a hell of a gamble, sacrificing a navy and several divisions to take some populated territory in California, but would Washington negotiate a peace to save the population of say, San Diego or Portland? hmm

No. It's not even a question.

Ignoring the logistical challenge--California is another 1500 miles further away than Hawaii--or the idea that a landing would be essentially unopposed.

The US would not surrender over a threatened atrocity on a city in a provincial backwater. It's like thinking the UK would surrender if Germany threatened to bomb Swansea or something.

And California was a backwater. In 1942 we still didn't have a major sports team anywhere--the closest baseball team was St. Louis. We had Hollywood but otherwise we were easy to ignore.
 

jamhaw

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Plausible enough for WWIII in the 1970s or 80s perhaps after Japan has consolidated her grip on Asia.
 
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Japan was simply too resource-poor. They even did not have enough firepower to destroy Pearl Harbour complitely, much less send army into California.
 

Zinegata

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I can't. Maybe you can? Success is not invading the while country, just enough to force Washington to concede to Japanese aims in Asia and the pacific.

How on earth could you get a decent supply line running?

To quote "Fire in the Sky" - Whatever the final score of the game, Japan, the country, loses the war.
 

Nicophorus

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No. It's not even a question.

Ignoring the logistical challenge-.

Remember this is a one way suicide mission, the only logistical challenge is killing everyone in LA before the divisions starved to death (if the demands for negotiated peace were not met by the Americans).

What was the population of LA in the early 1940s? Had to be at least a hundred thousand. I don't see a President allowing 100,000 American hostages to be killed just so the dutch and british could keep Asian empires.
 

Ming

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The best way is for Japan to come over the Arctic/Alaska in airships. (See the zeppelin thread)

If you want to restrict it to tech historically available to Japan at the time then maybe they could invent a manned version of the fire balloon. If you time it right, you could make the journey before the balloon-borne soldiers all starve. Although freezing and oxygen might become an issue.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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I doubt we are talking about how Japan gets some troops on the shore. Thats completely doable. A force large enough to get a modest fighting chance and suppling them is not.
 

Lwantssugar

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Well, barring an aerial invasion via airship the only way such an ambitious invasion could even be considered is if pearl harbor was an even more lopsided victory for Japan that resulted in the complete and total annihilation of the US Pacific fleet, particularly the loss of its two biggest carriers Enterprise and Lexington. If that occurred landing would be possible albeit difficult, a conventional military campaign in California would be a nightmare due to supply concerns, they could however fight a guerrilla war with success but I see that failing as well due to the Rocky mountain being one of the best natural defences we have in the lower 48. They would get bogged down in the harsh terrain and have little to show for it. Especially because Japan never really developed large strategic bombers like the US and Britain did, so even using airbases in occupied California they wouldn't be able to do much
 

DarthJF

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No. It's not even a question.

Ignoring the logistical challenge--California is another 1500 miles further away than Hawaii--or the idea that a landing would be essentially unopposed.

The US would not surrender over a threatened atrocity on a city in a provincial backwater. It's like thinking the UK would surrender if Germany threatened to bomb Swansea or something.

And California was a backwater. In 1942 we still didn't have a major sports team anywhere--the closest baseball team was St. Louis. We had Hollywood but otherwise we were easy to ignore.
Besides, it's not like Japanese tank divisions would blitzkrieg around the city and completely cut it off before anyone could react. By the time Japanese could have encircled any major population center civilians would have had enough time to flee.
 

Kovax

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I can't picture a thousand or so Japanese troops being able to hold a major city hostage. LAPD would be enough to slow them down. Figure in all the survivalists who went west to get away from civilization and ended up in California, and there wouldn't be a lot left for the US Army to mop up.
 

Nick Giordano

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The US would not surrender over a threatened atrocity on a city in a provincial backwater. It's like thinking the UK would surrender if Germany threatened to bomb Swansea or something.

And California was a backwater. In 1942 we still didn't have a major sports team anywhere--the closest baseball team was St. Louis. We had Hollywood but otherwise we were easy to ignore.
BACKWATER?! In 1940 Los Angeles was the fourth largest metropolitan area in the US, fifth most populated state in the US. After all the migration to California by new industries, the oil boom, and farming (Dust Bowl migrators) we were pretty damn numerous (and important).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940_United_States_Census
http://www.peakbagger.com/pbgeog/histmetropop.aspx

A more appropriate example would be the Nazis attacking Liverpool or Manchester.
 

gagenater

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Remember this is a one way suicide mission, the only logistical challenge is killing everyone in LA before the divisions starved to death (if the demands for negotiated peace were not met by the Americans).

What was the population of LA in the early 1940s? Had to be at least a hundred thousand. I don't see a President allowing 100,000 American hostages to be killed just so the dutch and british could keep Asian empires.

If the Japanese attempted a mission like this then all the people in the Japanese force would die without killing very many Americans, and the idea of a Japanese country would no longer exist, as they would have been all killed in the mass atomic genocide of 1946, paving the way for the 1st American state on the Eastern Pacific. This was already close to being reality as events actually played out, and with a LOT of extra grudges to settle I don't see any way that the state, people or culture of Japan survive the war. The war in the Pacific between the US and Japan was much like the war in the east between Germany and the USSR was - it was a war of annihilation, and the winner would be the last one with any soldiers. Throw in a hideous atrocity like that near the start of the war by the Japanese and even the semblance of civilization on that conflict would have been discarded. The war would happen in retribution for the dead hostages - not for some antique European game of color the map.
 

keynes2.0

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Best way for Japan to do this would be sign a white peace with China, industrialize and modernize for 15 years and then attempt a surprise attack in 1956. With the advent of better shipping technologies and more long range aircraft the challenge wouldn't be as great.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Best way for Japan to do this would be sign a white peace with China, industrialize and modernize for 15 years and then attempt a surprise attack in 1956. With the advent of better shipping technologies and more long range aircraft the challenge wouldn't be as great.
Well they have been at war with China to get a market, resources and improve their industry if a war happens with the US in the future.......
 

keynes2.0

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I think they could have outcompeted the US and Europe in Chinese markets if they had had the sense to realize that instead of starting a war. Proximity would help with transport costs a lot (which were big in the 1940s) and cheap Japanese labor would let them displace westerners in a lot of price points. Eventually transport gets cheaper and Japanese labor gets more expensive but that's the point where they launch their surprise attack on San Francisco.

Not a very sensible plan mind you, but logistically possible.
 

Jolt

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Just about the most unrealistic what-if of WW2.

Germany collapsed like water against a unbreakable Luxembourgian Schuster Line and consequent relentless Luxembourgian counter-attack, as dozens of thousands of German troops were surrounded and destroyed, with Luxembourgs population soon to be outnumbered several times by German POWs.

Reinforced by French troops, Luxembourgian's 400 Neo-Spartans making a daring push towards Wilhelmshaven, crushing all resistance and entrapping the vast majority of German's army in the Low lands.

German OKW orders a breakout to the East, but though scattered, sections of around 10 Luxembourgian troops succeed singlehandedly in wiping out entire German divisions at key checkpoints who the German OKW never expected such a stiff resistance could be made.

With the German invasion army utterly wiped out, Allied politicians and generals pushed for an invasion under their oversight. Minister of Defence Perre Dupong warned that only a Luxembourger-led invasion would have the approval of Luxembourg. Laughed away by Paul Reynard and Winston Churchill, along with their respective High Commands, the Allied armies proceeded to engage in a general offensive, with British troops landing in the Netherlands and the Atlantic coast of Germany, while French troops advanced North through the low lands with the intention of circumventing the Southern part of the Siegfried line.

It was a bad decision. Luxembourger troops allowed the British armies to establish a beachhead, but soon enough a force of 50 attacked the resupplying British, only a paltry force escaped to the Netherlands, with the Luxembourgers the entire BEF prisoner. Churchill called it "the worst British defeat in history". The British were out of the war, at least for the time being. Likewise, the French occupying forces in Germany were quickly surrounded and destroyed by around 200 troops, while the French troops moving through Luxembourg were likewise crushed and pushed back South. After a couple of engagements between Belgian troops who advanced to Luxembourg were beaten back, both countries dared not support any Allied attack on Luxembourg.

Leaving roughly 200 holding Luxembourg and the Rhineland all the way to Bremen, the other half of the Luxembourger army engaged in a general offensive towards Berlin, with the German forces that didn't melt away and desert were quickly destroyed. Soon Germany was in shambles, with strikes and general dissent happening everywhere. After occupying Magdesburg, Luxembourger troops divided their army in half, with the new destination being Vienna. The large territory being covered needed a garrison, so Luxembourger authorities put their large population of German PoWs to work as occupying forces. Immediately the Luxembourgers were cheered and hailed as liberators from Nazi oppression. Upon entering Berlin, the occupying army revolted and arrested Hitler, and pleaded to work for Luxembourg. By then, Luxembourger Southern forces had reached Munich, with no resistance. Negotiation with the new German authorities came to an end. The provisional Fuhrer of Germany, Alfred Jodl, agreed to an armistice and immediate integration of Germany into Luxembourg. The Luxembourger troops that arrived in Vienna were greeted as heroes. Luxembourg authorities set about to restore the independence and sovereignty of the Post-Munich Czech State, along with a Polish State with the pre-WW2 borders, as far as the German side was concerned. Luxembourg authorities declared that the Soviet invasion of Eastern Poland was a matter that wasn't of Luxembourgish concern, and should be brought up and solved by the soon independent Polish authorities, alongside other concerned States, to the Soviet Union.

Now with a large army to boot, Luxembourg left 50 Luxembourger troops spread out across the new Luxembourger States, and brought the rest back. The Luxembouger army then demanded the immediate surrender of the Belgian and Dutch governments, as they were integral parts of the old Luxembourger possessions, with the addition that their very culture were a part of the Luxembourger family. Both governments, pressured by the Western Allies refused. But a combination of large scale riots and popular uprisings alongside the advance of the Luxembourger army there made both governments relent. Dutch and Belgian armies then began fighting the French allies, as both monarchs petitioned for their territories to be annexed to Luxembourg, and for their demotions to nobility of lower rank. For their quick surrender, Charlotte of Luxembourg demoted Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and Leopold of Belgium just to Counts of Schiermonnikoog and Oudenaarde respectively.

Luxembourger troops advanced on the French troops still on the Lowlands and quickly destroyed most of them, and proceeded to turn South. French efforts faltered and collapsed as the Luxembourger armies won victory after victory. Paul Reynard resigned and was replaced by Marshal Petain, a very Luxembourgphil, who under the pressure of the population as usual, aceded and requested an armistice and annexation to Luxembourg, which was duly conceded. With Luxembourg now dominating Europe, and the reason for the war now partially amended, Churchill was highly pressured in Parliament to sign an armistice with Luxembourg. He steadfastly refused and was defeated in a motion of no confidence, and replaced with Lord Halifax, who with the British King's blessings signed an armistice with the Luxembourger duchy. Soon enough Luxembougers and British were cooperating to overcome the Soviets, who steadfastly refused to let go of their militaristic conquests.





Is this less realistic than a Japanese invasion of the US?