Can you build German Tank Destroyers and are they worth it?

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Kynes3

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Is this an option? Maybe i'm missing something obvious but I can't see from Germany's tech tree/ research how to unlock them.

On a related note, do people think they're worth building rather than just more Panzers?


Apologies if this has been discussed before but I couldn't find details in the HOI4 wiki or a thread here in the forum.
 
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Mister Analyst

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Is this an option? Maybe i'm missing something obvious but I can't see from Germany's tech tree/ research how to unlock them.

On a related note, do people think they're worth building rather than just more Panzers?


Apologies if this has been discussed before but I couldn't find details in the HOI4 wiki or a thread here in the forum.
First research the basic tank, then research the tank destroyer by clicking the button shown in the graphic below.

Tank Destroyer.PNG
 
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Simon_9732495

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On a related note, do people think they're worth building rather than just more Panzers?

Tank destroyers are used to increase the piercing of your tank division.
You want your tanks to pierce the armor of enemy tanks. In single player the piercing of normal tanks is enough and you dont need tank destroyers.

Here some info about piercing and other stats of land units:
https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_units#Statistics
 
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mabus81

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Is this an option? Maybe i'm missing something obvious but I can't see from Germany's tech tree/ research how to unlock them.

On a related note, do people think they're worth building rather than just more Panzers?


Apologies if this has been discussed before but I couldn't find details in the HOI4 wiki or a thread here in the forum.

Yes you can, and yes they are. But in order to maneuvre yourself into a position you need them in singleplayer, you need to be as bad as a general as the austrian was. That might be the tricky part.
 
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Eisscrat

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Tankdestroyers give your Infantrydivisions additional armor so if the enemy has not enough piercing the take only half the damage. Also the allow piercing the enemy tanks.

But this is very costly. especily cause of the actual attricion system the every type of equipment take one attrice in time. So if u have 1000 rifles u take 1 attricion per cicle. If u have 24 medium tanks destroyers u loose also 1 per cycle. Reliability change nothing at this. So if u have all ur Inf divisions equpipt with Stugs (was is costly but doable) u will need a lot of them to replace attrition loses.
 
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Simon_9732495

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One point to add:

For a tank destroyer bataillon you need only about half the units of a normal tank bataillon but the costs per unit are the same.
Example:
TankUnits per bataillonProduction cost per unitTotal production cost
1939 Medium Tank5012600
1939 Medium Tank destroyer2412288

And Tank destoyers have the same armor value as the tank, while SPGs and SPAAs have lower armor.
 
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Meglok

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TDs are useful in MP and unnecessary in 1.9 SP. The ai will not build a template to where you need extra piercing.
 
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Meglok

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But you benefit from the armor.
But you benefit from the armor.

Up to the point where you block piercing you are correct. But adding armor to a template in excess of what the ai can pierce is a waste of IC. If the ai can only pierce 25 armor and your template has 50, that is either armor or IC that could be used elsewhere.
 
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Eh up me duck

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One point to add:

For a tank destroyer bataillon you need only about half the units of a normal tank bataillon but the costs per unit are the same.
Example:
TankUnits per bataillonProduction cost per unitTotal production cost
1939 Medium Tank5012600
1939 Medium Tank destroyer2412288

And Tank destoyers have the same armor value as the tank, while SPGs and SPAAs have lower armor.
Interesting.

My Medium Tank divisions are normally a ratio of 2 to 1 Medium Tank to Medium SP Art. Anyone know how it would work out with Medium TD and Medium SP Art?
 
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myzael

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Up to the point where you block piercing you are correct. But adding armor to a template in excess of what the ai can pierce is a waste of IC. If the ai can only pierce 25 armor and your template has 50, that is either armor or IC that could be used elsewhere.
Not necessarily a waste. Of course with 25 piercing and 50 armor it's a waste. But with 45 and 50 it isn't. Keep in mind that it's rare to see the theoretical armour of a division template in the field. Be it losses or older equipment, it fluctuates quite heavily, especially in longer battles. I've had many situations where tanks started with armour advantage but started getting pierced after couple days.
 
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Vill4geidi0t

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Up to the point where you block piercing you are correct. But adding armor to a template in excess of what the ai can pierce is a waste of IC. If the ai can only pierce 25 armor and your template has 50, that is either armor or IC that could be used elsewhere.

I just found that light tank 3 has 30 amor which makes me wonder why even bother with medium tanks against the air when you can simply field very cheap but upgraded light tanks with soft attack comparable to 1941 mediums.
 
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Vill4geidi0t

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Because 41 medium have closer to 60 Armour in my templates?

The ai does not have piercing much higher than 25. I'm just posing a question but why need medium tanks if light tanks have similar stats, encircle more quickly, and still can not be pierced by ai divisions. I could be completely wrong but just thinking out loud.
 
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Eisscrat

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The ai does not have piercing much higher than 25. I'm just posing a question but why need medium tanks if light tanks have similar stats, encircle more quickly, and still can not be pierced by ai divisions. I could be completely wrong but just thinking out loud.

Why the ai only can pierce 25? Which unit? Which time?
 
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porta80

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A 1943 light tank has 30 armor yes but not your division. The templates armor gets reduced once you add motorised and support brigades. So you end up with something like ~20-24 armor on a light tank division.
And ai researches AT so they will get higher piercing values later. I have seen like 60 piercing on a inf div in 1943.
 
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Vill4geidi0t

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A 1943 light tank has 30 armor yes but not your division. The templates armor gets reduced once you add motorised and support brigades. So you end up with something like ~20-24 armor on a light tank division.

But you can upgrade the tanks with xp and get armor bonus through politics/design company.
 
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porta80

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Yes you can but even then you hardly reach 30 or anything reasonable above 30...
A 20 width inf div with eng and sup art on 43 inf tech has nearly 28 piercing base... add anti air 2 as support and you have 41 piercing.

Light tanks are a waste of resources imho. Maybe resonable for poland and france but then...

this is the template the Rusian AI has in 1941 just the moment I attack them 43 piercing. adn they have like 70 of them.
piercing.PNG
 
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Not necessarily a waste. Of course with 25 piercing and 50 armor it's a waste. But with 45 and 50 it isn't. Keep in mind that it's rare to see the theoretical armour of a division template in the field. Be it losses or older equipment, it fluctuates quite heavily, especially in longer battles. I've had many situations where tanks started with armour advantage but started getting pierced after couple days.

Myzael is quite right. I've seen it plenty of times, too.

I've also seen something far more distressing (for my opponent, anyway) when using heavy tank destroyers.

In two games as the Soviet Union, I saw German panzer divisions start a battle against my specialized tank destroyer divisions. They were being pierced on day 1, but otherwise were doing okay. But by day 3, some of the panzer divisions had lost the ability to pierce my tank destroyers.

The losses in armor cut their piercing down to the point that they were simply unable to pierce my tank destroyer divisions. It's not like I designed them to be space marines, but losing even 50 tanks in a panzer division can seriously damage unit stats.

This leads to the other reason to use tank destroyers: stacking hard attack. Yes, you need piercing, but novice players often overlook the value of hard attack in hurting the ORG and strength of panzer formations. And with heavy tank destroyers, you can stack some hard attack, even more so if you pick the heavy tank designer and invest XP into the tank destroyer gun.
 
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Vill4geidi0t

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Yes you can but even then you hardly reach 30 or anything reasonable above 30...
A 20 width inf div with eng and sup art on 43 inf tech has nearly 28 piercing base... add anti air 2 as support and you have 41 piercing.

Light tanks are a waste of resources imho. Maybe resonable for poland and france but then...

this is the template the Rusian AI has in 1941 just the moment I attack them 43 piercing. adn they have like 70 of them.
View attachment 588750

Darn. I can dream I suppose.
 
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