population numbers is just one of those things that are awsome to be integrated into a game like ths, was so happy to see it plays apart in nomads, but then sad to see everyone else missing out 
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can you add population for everyhitng pleaes?
- Thread starter Jak9090
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Yeah I would think it would be cool to add to all other types of governments. It would like tell how much troops and soldiers you can raise, and so on.
No, the system is too attached to the Nomadic system to be detached.
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Meaning they don't want to do it because of reasons, but some intrepid modder will do it in a month or two regardless of how hard it would be
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Well could you for the least look to the retinues? Seems to me that it would work well for tribals being able to raise troops with prestige that are a bit more reliant than the decision ones.
Basically, there are these "nomad objects" in the code under the hood that contain all nomad-related stuff like population, manpower, various nomad capital data, clan opinions etc. They are tied to clan titles and they don't exist for other titles (they would eat up too much memory).
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Well, the Population system as it exists is purely a Nomad system scaling element. I don't think it actually maps particularly well to the size of real populations, unless the Steppes were much less densely peopled than I had thought. It's not designed to be a detailed simulation - see for example the (AFAIK, I could just not know about it!) apparent lack of impact of Raids and Disease and so on on the population figures, at least in my play-throughs.
Plus, adding population counts, and especially opening those counts up to the consequences of player actions, opens a whole big can of worms that's best left untouched. There's a reason civilians don't (again, to my knowledge) die during war or from privations in the Victoria games, for example. No-one wants certain topics to come up in the game, and for pretty good reason. Which is all I'll be saying on that matter, and this isn't the place to discuss it in depth. Just figured I'd point out it's a serious consideration.
Plus, adding population counts, and especially opening those counts up to the consequences of player actions, opens a whole big can of worms that's best left untouched. There's a reason civilians don't (again, to my knowledge) die during war or from privations in the Victoria games, for example. No-one wants certain topics to come up in the game, and for pretty good reason. Which is all I'll be saying on that matter, and this isn't the place to discuss it in depth. Just figured I'd point out it's a serious consideration.
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I agree, that it would not add much to the game. This ties in with the discussion on the EU4 forum about adding population: There just is not enough reliable data to reconstruct it in the game. And manpower is just not needed for any ruler who draws his troops from holdings: The manpower is represented in the garrisons and levies
Well would it be possible to like...just DISPLAY a number, representing our manpower, retinues, potential manpower etc. just abit of immersion and helps to plan your attacks and such.
No, they removed population from the EU series for the same reason it's stupid to have in this one, it adds literally nothing and is misleading and pointless. Someone who starts up the game might think it means something when it's a meaningless number with no implications and no purpose.
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Giving Feudal Realms the Nomad Population system would be one of the worst possible ways to implement population ever used in any Grand Strategy Game Ever.
Population does need to be represented, but the Nomad System only works for Nomadic Population Systems where the people are not tied down to the land, but instead to the horde that leads them. Sedentary Population would have to be tied to Provinces or, even better, Holdings. It could really be done already via buildings and mods, but ideally it should have a specific in-Engine system so that it doesn't rely on hundreds of highly inefficient event checks.
If I were to implement Population I would tie it to Holdings, or Provinces, and give it, rather than a numerical score since population numbers weren't that well recorded, just a simple bar that could fill up and be drained.
In all honesty, you could probably just rip off the Looting Mechanic with a few tweaks.
Give us another bar that gradually, very slowly even, fills. The Bar would have a 'Cap' determined by the development of the holding, in particular buildings like the castle town, which would, rather than directly increasing taxes, increase how much population can be safely supported in the province/holding. Then, Population would provide a major multiplier to taxes and levies, with buildings instead being modified to change the disposition of the levies.
Population would have a default rate of growth, which would increase the further below the 'Cap' it was and be further modified by the Climate and Terrain of the province. Unlike Loot, it could also increase over the 'Cap', hence the quotes, however it will increase slower the further over the cap it gets.
This would then let us actually provide a semblance of sense to Plagues, by making provinces that are over-populated far more susceptible to plagues.
Then, Population will be gradually decreased in some cases, like an Active Missionary, or being Raided, or Sieged, or just having armies marching through or fighting in the province.
Not too complicated.
The real goal is simply to provide a way for climate and terrain to dynamically influence the province's population. If we had such a system for instance you could even give all provinces the max number of holding slots, or even remove the holding slot cap entirely, since provinces with inhospitable climates would, even if you built a ton of holdings, probably never get a very high population count.
And also make it so building a town doesn't magically spawn people to live in the town. You have ways to encourage population growth, but no way to actually guarantee it.
And also it lets Plagues have an actual Long Term Affect.
Population does need to be represented, but the Nomad System only works for Nomadic Population Systems where the people are not tied down to the land, but instead to the horde that leads them. Sedentary Population would have to be tied to Provinces or, even better, Holdings. It could really be done already via buildings and mods, but ideally it should have a specific in-Engine system so that it doesn't rely on hundreds of highly inefficient event checks.
If I were to implement Population I would tie it to Holdings, or Provinces, and give it, rather than a numerical score since population numbers weren't that well recorded, just a simple bar that could fill up and be drained.
In all honesty, you could probably just rip off the Looting Mechanic with a few tweaks.
Give us another bar that gradually, very slowly even, fills. The Bar would have a 'Cap' determined by the development of the holding, in particular buildings like the castle town, which would, rather than directly increasing taxes, increase how much population can be safely supported in the province/holding. Then, Population would provide a major multiplier to taxes and levies, with buildings instead being modified to change the disposition of the levies.
Population would have a default rate of growth, which would increase the further below the 'Cap' it was and be further modified by the Climate and Terrain of the province. Unlike Loot, it could also increase over the 'Cap', hence the quotes, however it will increase slower the further over the cap it gets.
This would then let us actually provide a semblance of sense to Plagues, by making provinces that are over-populated far more susceptible to plagues.
Then, Population will be gradually decreased in some cases, like an Active Missionary, or being Raided, or Sieged, or just having armies marching through or fighting in the province.
Not too complicated.
The real goal is simply to provide a way for climate and terrain to dynamically influence the province's population. If we had such a system for instance you could even give all provinces the max number of holding slots, or even remove the holding slot cap entirely, since provinces with inhospitable climates would, even if you built a ton of holdings, probably never get a very high population count.
And also make it so building a town doesn't magically spawn people to live in the town. You have ways to encourage population growth, but no way to actually guarantee it.
And also it lets Plagues have an actual Long Term Affect.
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I thought the levy bar was close enough to this described population bar?
It kinda is. It's just too dependent on pre-defined things and not dynamic enough for my tastes. And also just doesn't do a good enough job to represent the loss of life that happened in certain situations. Take the Plague of Justinian for instance. This basically crippled the Byzantine Empire and was one of the major things that let the Arabs Conquer Egypt and thus began the long decline of the Eastern Roman Empire. How would it be represented in game in the current system?
A Province Modifier may provide suitable nerf, but it will go away and it will be like it never happened, plus you either have the Modifier last a Century which is poor gameplay since the player has almost no way to speed up a province modifier being removed, or you make it last a decade and its underwhelming. Destroying Buildings just means you have to pay for them again, in a rich Empire this won't be a problem.
Also Levies have no impact on Taxes.
A Province Modifier may provide suitable nerf, but it will go away and it will be like it never happened, plus you either have the Modifier last a Century which is poor gameplay since the player has almost no way to speed up a province modifier being removed, or you make it last a decade and its underwhelming. Destroying Buildings just means you have to pay for them again, in a rich Empire this won't be a problem.
Also Levies have no impact on Taxes.
It probably is as far as gameplay matters. The only positive of everyone having manpower that I can think of is that it's easier to roleplay the total size of your nation. Would be nice if it were built with this to begin with but it's not really that important at this stage of Ck2.
True, I just don't really see a need for population size at all though when tax revenue and levy size are already listed, using these along with realm size is how I determine my ranking using the ledger's statistics. Role-play wise for example, if I were to compile said statistics for an AAR or in a MP game, I'd just use these statistics and determine some base unit calculation for 'population.' Even though those calculations change all the time in the real world I'd still just go for an overall average calculation and say that the inaccuracy represents the poor logistical system of medieval technology.
I'd just drop in black death honestly, since that's what it basically was, same virus and everything. I believe it takes a significant amount of levy size when black death goes around.
Destroying buildings also resets the levy size and forces this to build back up, I'd consider it like repopulating the plague ridden country side after burning it all down and disinfecting the area, making it not gamey at all and only a rich empire could afford to fund an operation like that. Even if you had a population bar, they'd still have a province modifier for black death, killing off the population slowly over either 100 years and being too strong or 10 years and too weak, so it really doesn't make a difference if you have a bar to represent it or not.
Except that with the historical scenario they were not able to rebuild in the progressive statistically manner a rich realm in CK2 would. Representing the population as @Vishaing suggests would better model the sacrifice needed to succeed and limit the possibilities in a more constrained non-exponentially way than is allowed right now.
The game already chugs without it needing to calculate population growth in every single province.
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