Can we talk about the awkward single-culture groups?

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Clownie

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Culture means culture, neither ethnicity or language. Hungarian should almost certainly be in the same culture group as their slavic neighbors.

They were distinct from southern Slavs in the time period, having no more interaction, and indeed far less, with them than with the Habsburgs; as such, making the magyars German has a much, much stronger argument than making them south Slavic.

However, the entire region was a melting pot that involved ethnic magyars (Hungarians and Székely), szászok (Transylvanian Germans), and Romanians. As such, a Central European or Danubian culture group involving those three cultures is optimal. Bunching them with southern Slavs, meanwhile, is patently absurd.
 

Homusubi

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Japanese as a culture should be cut up and turned into a culture group: Yamato for Chugoku, Shikoku, Kansai and the western parts of Tokaido and Horikoku, Kyushu for the namesake island, Kanto for the namesake region and eastern Tokaido, Tohoku for the namesake region and eastern Horikoku, and Ryukyuan for Ryukyu. Possibly move Ainu into Japanese.

I agree with this so much that I made a mod of it (albeit one which puts Kyushu and Shikoku into a single "Nankai" culture). If Bavarians and Austrians are different cultures, then clearly the Light Soy Sauce People and Dark Soy Sauce People shouldn't be made to share the same culture.

Ainu is an isolate in every sense though. It would make more sense to split them from Kamchatkan and give them their own culture group ("Jomon"?).

As for the other suggestions, if people are desperate to merge Hungarian with something, I agree that it makes more sense to put them with Romanians than with any sort of Slavs. Still though, anything in that region of the world will be the source of an argument, whether from Magyars, South Slavs, Romanians, or whoever.


Also, "Celtic" is historically inaccurate as the historical Celts were NOT Breton/Welsh/Irish/Highland Scots/Manx/Cornish. Woudln't it make more sense to split them into two groups, "Brythonic" (Breton and Welsh; adding Cornish doesn't make that much sense as the "wall" in "Cornwall" is cognate with "Wales", for example) and "Goidelic"/"Gaelic" (Irish and the Highland Scottish culture Grand Historian mentioned and which I believe has been added in the Beyond the Pale mod).
 
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Clownie

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Also, "Celtic" is historically inaccurate as the historical Celts were NOT Breton/Welsh/Irish/Highland Scots/Manx/Cornish. Woudln't it make more sense to split them into two groups, "Brythonic" (Breton and Welsh; adding Cornish doesn't make that much sense as the "wall" in "Cornwall" is cognate with "Wales", for example) and "Goidelic"/"Gaelic" (Irish and the Highland Scottish culture Grand Historian mentioned and which I believe has been added in the Beyond the Pale mod).

This is a linguistic argument. Culturally, the Brythonic and Goidelic Celts were similar, and they shared the same old pre-Christian mythos.

Breton being put in French group makes sense to me.
 
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spyroware1

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Byzantine-Balkan group? Are you an idiot? South Slavics and Greeks extremely different, I, as a Bulgar even would get offended. Don't mind all Serbs and Greeks on this forum. If that happens even more people are going whine then Hungary-West Slavic thing. Just NO.

I see even more ignorant people popping up. "Greek-South Slavic group nuuhhhh" NO. JUST NO. Influence is not even culturally from the byzantines and that was 600 years ago. Turkish has more influence then greek on Bulgarian/south slavic languages.

Have you travelled beyond whatever cave you're holed in? Culture has two layers, high culture and low culture. The Balkan low culture is identical. A village in Bosnia, Macedonia, Wallachia, Morea, Zagora etc is in its everyday cultural functions identical.

This is probably what you refer to when you talk about "Turkish influence", whatever that means in a game that starts a couple centuries before the Ottoman cultural-administrative-demographic apex. But things that the world and the Balkan countries themselves consider Turkish are actually Byzantine and therefore native to the Balkans.

The Ottoman cuisine is a rehash of the Byzantine cuisine. Byzantine desserts and Persian/Levantine savoury dishes. Things like kebabs, stuffed vineleaves, baklava, everything with aubergines, rosewater, quince spoon sweets etc are well attested Byzantine items, most of them existed since ancient Greece. They’re not Turkish, they’re ancient Eastern Mediterranean staples.

Then there’s the folklore which frankly is very similar throughout Europe, so we shouldn’t single out the Balkan as particular, eg European fairytales have been deconstructed to death as more or less samey stories. Yet there are distinct customs in the area from the Alps to Greece that survived well into our times like men dressing in Krampus-like costumes during certain holidays.

As for the Balkan high culture, guess what, it's almost-identical as well. The Byzantine literary/theological tradition extended as far Russia. Marrying into the Imperial family was #1 foreign policy for all Orthodox powers. During Byzantium’s apex even a Rurikid Grand Prince of Rus married the niece of an emperor with as low legitimacy as it could get, and he still assumed that niece’s surname – Monomakh.

The Danubian Principalities and the Balkans in general followed the Byzantine legal code (the Hexabiblos, the Farmers' Laws etc) as codified as late as the 14th century. At some point the Romanian and Greek nobility were effectively merged during the latter half of the timeframe. The Phanariote rule was the outcome of centuries of such Ottoman Christian intermarriage, not the cause.

The Albanian Prince Karl Topia’s monument inscriptions were written in Greek during a time when Byzantium was an Ottoman vassal and even though he was a Catholic ruler and had excellent relations with Rome. Surely there must have been some cultural significance to Greek as not to choose Latin or something over it. Tosk Albanian was written in the Greek alphabet till last century.

Your only defence would be language = culture, as such Balkan cultures need to be distinct. Well, enter the Balkan sprachbund. An area were Greek/Romanian/Albanian/Bulgarian-Macedonian/Torlakian converge in most grammar and syntax features despite being in different languages groups, due to cultural and geographical proximity.

Fun fact, new linguistic research places Neapolitan (and Sicilian to some extend) into the Balkan Sparchbund too. Of course, Sicily and the south of Italy was Greek speaking well into the middle ages, but it’s not only because of that. Before the Romanian/Slavic/Albanian/Neapolitan/Greek linguistic area there was an Illyrian/Thracian/Messapian/Greek linguistic area where those peoples intermingled and created a cultural continuum.

You see, geography and culture always finds a way. They’re larger than the fleeting appreciations and sensibilities of ideological parvenus such as the modern nation-state and its followers like you.

Of course, in-game groups are an abstraction and they can’t always be perfect. Slovenian is an outlier in this discussion. Technically an isogloss exist in Slavic languages. Those under the literary influence of Byzantium (East Slavic, Serbian, Bulgarian) pronounce the non-slavic "au" as "av" or "af", like Greek does, while those slavic languages not under Byzantium’s influence (West Slavic, Slovenian, most Croatian dialects) pronounce it like in Latin/Italian - "a-u".

Yet if merging all the Balkan groups together isn’t the poster kid for the devs' new culture group =/= language group idea then I don’t know what is. I could go on forever - I mean, we didn’t even touch genetics! - but first people like you would have to sit the fuck down before calling me an ignorant idiot.
 
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Thravid

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Take it easy and relax... and no name calling... its a constructive discution, i think Bulgarians actually ar the most similar to greeks in the entire Balkans.
And heres why:
1. Arhitecture similarity/ Byz copys in short
2. Orthodox Cristianity from the Byzantines
3. Form of goverment and medieval institutions from the Byzantines
4. Bulgaria has been evectivly under Byzantine rule for hundreds of years
5. Chirlic alphabet invented by the greeks , very similar to greek alphabet
6. Bulgarian medieval costums...
And the list can go on.... but if you gone start with XX century bulgarian nationalism.... be my guest.
PS: Byzantines ar not equal to modern greeks.... Emperor Justinian was ilirian as an example... very cosmpolite empire composed by many balcanic nations
Architecture and Religion? French cultures should be 1 with Latin and Iberian ones, they where ruled under the Roman Empire after all "effectively".... I don't think multiple conquests on Constantinople, including a sacking by Bulgarian leaders is really "effective" it's clear Bulgarians were not too happy with any country that ruled over them. And again, Bulgarians speak Bulgarian, which is SLAVIC. Not GREEK. It just is. "name calling" So I can't call people by their names? And Bulgarian nationalism started since Bulgarians where around. We aren't the most submissive and passive culture after all. Russians use the Cyrillic alphabet too. So let's put Russian in the Byzantine group too hihihihihi. German and Danish spelling is close. Let's put Scandinavian cultures under German too. Polish, Russians, Bulgarians are all Slavs but they still are in different culture groups, even tough being similar, much more similar then Greek-Bulgarian.

TL;DR Bulgarian is Slavic, Greek is Byzantine, stop the whine, Bulgarian are not Byzantines.

Again, spyroware1, nice. Very nice. Extremely nice. But sadly all of that is absolute crap.
bulgar-emap.GIF

Exactly, genetics. Bulgarians are simply not Greeks. By blood, by language, by stories. Even by food.
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/MacedoniansNotBulgarians.html
And here you have a Wikipedia link, and it's true Wikipedia is a bad source but check out the links on the end of the page and do some deeper research by better sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Bulgaria
It mentions Bulgarians where a SLAVIC HUB, and still own many old SLAVIC and old BULGAR traditions, which both peoples don't even come CLOSE from Greek lands. Bulgarians = Slavs.
 
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spyroware1

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@Thravid, you have no coherent argument on what is IRL culture and what is in-game culture. You just dismiss everything. Yes French had cultural ties to Iberian and Italy because of the Romance tradition. Is that disputed? Bulgarian is a slavic language and bears shit in the woods. Greek = Greek, Byzantine Greek = Greek, Byzantine =/= Greek. We are talking about an overarching cultural group that brings people together and you're on the defensive as if we're talking about Greek primacy or something. If you identify closer to Muslim Kazan Tartars than to your neighbours that's your prerogative. And I am under no obligation to save the lost kids of the internet so..
 
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Grand Historian

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I agree with this so much that I made a mod of it (albeit one which puts Kyushu and Shikoku into a single "Nankai" culture). If Bavarians and Austrians are different cultures, then clearly the Light Soy Sauce People and Dark Soy Sauce People shouldn't be made to share the same culture.

Ainu is an isolate in every sense though. It would make more sense to split them from Kamchatkan and give them their own culture group ("Jomon"?).

Well, Kyushu has always had more foreign influence than the rest of Japan, be it Chinese or Iberian, and it has developed a bit of a unique culture from mainland Japan as a result. Kanto has always had a degree of autonomy and sophistication from the rest of Japan, while Tohoku has always been something of the 'wild west' of Japan; serving as both an unruly, somewhat autonomous frontier and retaining a discernable amount of Emishi influence even after it faded away elsewhere.

Maybe make an Ezo culture that can appear if a Japanese lord controls an Ainu province? Not certain if it should be made into it's own culture group, though, since that would create another single culture Culture Group.
 
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Xinkc

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For people saying Magyars aren't Slavs, remember that Paradox has fully decided to move Bretons to the French culture group
Culture groups are entirely for gameplay and not historical accuracy now

I thought it was to preserve Breton culture. The French didn't wipe it out like often happens when France is strong, did they?
 

blackchoas

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Culture means culture, neither ethnicity or language. Hungarian should almost certainly be in the same culture group as their slavic neighbors.
This is kind of the issue though, because what does culture mean? depending on who you ask when and where they would include things like ethnicity and language as central to culture

Part of the reason this is so debatable on many angles is that culture isn't a straight forward definable thing, but it includes language and ethnicity and religion and customs and history and sometimes is really just a matter of perception.
 

Homusubi

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Well, Kyushu has always had more foreign influence than the rest of Japan, be it Chinese or Iberian, and it has developed a bit of a unique culture from mainland Japan as a result. Kanto has always had a degree of autonomy and sophistication from the rest of Japan, while Tohoku has always been something of the 'wild west' of Japan; serving as both an unruly, somewhat autonomous frontier and retaining a discernable amount of Emishi influence even after it faded away elsewhere.

Maybe make an Ezo culture that can appear if a Japanese lord controls an Ainu province? Not certain if it should be made into it's own culture group, though, since that would create another single culture Culture Group.

Agree. In pre-EUIV periods, Kanto itself was also a bit frontier-like.

Maybe Tosa could have the same culture as Kyushu, while Awa gets Yamato?

Good idea with the automatic "Matsumae-style" Ezo culture. Also, is it possible that a "new Emishi" culture could emerge if the Ainu conquer Tohoku?
 

Grand Historian

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Agree. In pre-EUIV periods, Kanto itself was also a bit frontier-like.

Maybe Tosa could have the same culture as Kyushu, while Awa gets Yamato?

Good idea with the automatic "Matsumae-style" Ezo culture. Also, is it possible that a "new Emishi" culture could emerge if the Ainu conquer Tohoku?

Possibly. Shikoku as a whole was pretty in line with Honshu due to greater accessibility to the mainland, geographic position, and less contact with foreigners due to the former and a relative lack of wealth and arable land compared to Kyushu, but Iyo was under heavy influence from the Otomo throughout the period until their decline.

It could be possible, if the Ainu were to conquer it quickly enough. If a patch ever added in a way to have more than one culture/religion, then it could even be added in as a preexisting culture in 1444 (albeit a dying one) instead of one that pops up.
 

vfmikey

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I think I just heard Ishihara Shintaro projectile vomit.

Just because a culture doesn't have any others that are similar doesn't mean they have to be forced to be made similar ingame. Magyars aren't Slavs, Japanese aren't Koreans and vice versa, Hmong people (Miao is derogatory) aren't Han Chinese, and Tibet isn't "China" (that's a modern thing).

Magyars aren't Slavs, yet their culture is similar to those of some west Slavic countries. It's just like putting Armenian and Georgian in one group imho.

I think the Hungary problem could be solved a little by adding Slovak culture in (pre 1.12 term) Poszony and Szepes, and Trasilvanian in Maros, Bihar and Hunyad so it would be easier for Hungary to expand (ie. easier to get accepted cultures)

Although I'd prefer seeing Hungarian in West Slavic culture group.

And I think, but maybe that's the "EUV" department, we should get nobility culture and commoners culture in provinces.
 
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wergy

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Take it easy and relax... and no name calling... its a constructive discution, i think Bulgarians actually ar the most similar to greeks in the entire Balkans.
And heres why:
1. Arhitecture similarity/ Byz copys in short
2. Orthodox Cristianity from the Byzantines
3. Form of goverment and medieval institutions from the Byzantines
4. Bulgaria has been evectivly under Byzantine rule for hundreds of years
5. Chirlic alphabet invented by the greeks , very similar to greek alphabet
6. Bulgarian medieval costums...
And the list can go on.... but if you gone start with XX century bulgarian nationalism.... be my guest.
PS: Byzantines ar not equal to modern greeks.... Emperor Justinian was ilirian as an example... very cosmpolite empire composed by many balcanic nations

Ok then, let's make French and Spanish int ONE cluture group then. Both have neo-latin language, catholic roots, similar folklore and architecture....
Why stop here? Let's merge all the German and all the Scandinavian cultures! They have the same roots, mostly converted to Protestant, same language, same gods... Shall I go on?
Just because one culture had an influence on another they shouldn't be in the same culture group...
 
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ZomgK3tchup

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Culture means culture, neither ethnicity or language. Hungarian should almost certainly be in the same culture group as their slavic neighbors.
A fundamental component of culture is a shared understanding of symbols, which includes written language.

You are correct in that culture does not necessarily align with ethnicity but incorrect in that it does not encompass language.
 
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I come away from all this wondering -- what is the use of culture in EU4? Is what it offers to the game worth the problems it causes?

Consider the Manchu example discussed before. Manchu must be in the cultural Chinese group in order to make their historical conquest remotely plausible. Why? Because of what culture means to EU4. But clearly culture didn't mean this historically as the Manchu were able to weave around this when they defeated Ming. So to work around this problem, EU4's model must put Manchu in the Chinese group, which is weird when you consider what culture and culture groups are supposed to be modeling.

So what does culture do? From a mechanical perspective, it eases conquering, assimilating, & governing those in the same culture or group while penalizing conquered areas outside of your group. From a historical simulation perspective, it tries to paint the world with the flavor of who lived where.

These goals are often in conflict with each other, as we see in the Manchu example. There are many other examples. Culture is argued about more frequently than any other issue in EU4. People get actually offended by how cultures are grouped together because of perceptions about what it says about their own history and way of life. Gameplay tradeoffs are often awkward as either historical reality or gameplay functionality must be sacrificed for the other. Because of this, no matter how much Paradox tweaks things it'll never quite be "just right."

Not to mention how simple the simulation is! Every province is represented as a single homogenous culture. Doing more than this is certainly feasible, but would it help or hurt? It'll add complexity to the game, and it's a monumental undertaking that is doomed to still being inaccurate in the end. We'll have the same trade-offs, only worse; culture counts misrepresented for gameplay reasons, or represented historically but mauling regional gameplay in the process. Plus, the game spans 400 years of play, so which period do you choose for implementing the culture counts? You can choose the start date, but how do you make it respond fluidly across time in a manner that's both feasible from a simulation standpoint and interesting & useful to the gameplay?


So here's a more radical thought. What if "culture" as we know it just disappeared altogether?


In terms of the simulation there are many advantages to this. Cultures change with time, religion, & governance, but none of this can be represented in the game outside of the conversion cultural genocide option, and even that is extremely limited. There is no longer the worry of how much of which culture was present in any given province or whether the culture groups are allocated properly.

This does of course create a gameplay hole: it's one less factor to consider when choosing where to conquer. The AI likes to conquer its own culture group; this is reasonable because there are notable benefits for doing so. It also tends to result in nicely-modeled states that more or less can fit how history developed (when the groups are implemented for gameplay fidelity at least). But is this really necessary? Trade regions and same religion already create some incentive to do this sort of thing. Still, it's not quite enough; do we want Spain and France bleeding into each other every game because without the culture line there's more incentive for them to take each other's land?


If we want to fill this hole, I can think of two ways to do it. One is to continue modeling aspects of culture, but not by naming the culture according to the historical group (because of all the problems this can cause). Rather, an area's culture would be described by its set of "values," local beliefs and customs held by the people. The more the local values match the national values (which would be the values of your capital province), the easier to govern / integrate / conquer. The more they differ, the more rebellious / independent those provinces / states will be.

Some of these would be generally static for a given area to represent the ancient traditions still in practice (and to keep separate areas that are quite similar otherwise). But other values could change dynamically over time depending on things like religion, how they're governed, etc. Local religion would slowly push people to have certain values it favors and eliminate certain values it dislikes. Federal government, autonomy rating, and even things like buildings and development could do the same (as sparsely-populated provinces of sheep herders will have differing values to large trade cities). So if you develop your low-population province of shepherds into a thriving metropolis, you can expect your values in that province to change over time as well.

This sort of system, properly designed, could be much easier on the simulation vs gameplay tradeoff that culture normally has. A nation with a single religion and certain type of government and development level will tend toward a particular "culture" due to the set of values that become standard across the provinces. Changing government will spark a lot of unrest if the new government's values are very different (because your capital will instantly change them over); same with religion. But maybe if you stick to outdated governments too long people will start to protest; provinces might automatically shift values toward those of newer government systems that your nation has access to (maybe +more if your neighbors have that government already) as they demand reform. And if you focus all your Development into your capital province, the poor countryside will eventually get sick of it and start to revolt against your rule (a buff to smaller tall state strategy).


A second option would be to scrap any attempt to model culture and instead model the things that cause cultures to exist -- specifically, communication (and thus geography). You will get more unrest in a province as the distance to your capital increases; this distance calculation is not a strict line, but rather takes into account difficult terrain, waterways, etc. If there's a mountain range separating you, that's as big a penalty as if there were numerous additional provinces in-between. So if France tries to invade Spain, it's going to find the provinces a lot more rebellious & less productive since their distance calculation will be quite high despite them having a direct land connection. To help with regions that shouldn't consider this, there could be a bonus offset in the other direction for provinces in the same trade node (to simulate the communications that happened with the people who traded together in that node).

As tech advances (Admin, Dip, or both), these penalties would slowly reduce, simulating advancements in things like sailing, the printing press, etc. Republics might take a much worse distance penalty overall, nudging them toward smaller, taller states.


Pretty radical ideas, I know. Just brainstorming a bit, trying to go outside the box. What do you think? Any of this inspire anyone to new, better ideas perhaps?
 
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Homusubi

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Possibly. Shikoku as a whole was pretty in line with Honshu due to greater accessibility to the mainland, geographic position, and less contact with foreigners due to the former and a relative lack of wealth and arable land compared to Kyushu, but Iyo was under heavy influence from the Otomo throughout the period until their decline.

It could be possible, if the Ainu were to conquer it quickly enough. If a patch ever added in a way to have more than one culture/religion, then it could even be added in as a preexisting culture in 1444 (albeit a dying one) instead of one that pops up.

What of Tosa province itself? It seems to have historically had a rather independent spirit, being the base for the Chosokabe invasions and - more significantly, albeit not in the EUIV timeframe - the birthplace of Sakamoto Ryoma and a major centre for the Meiji Restoration. Re Iyo, another thing to consider would be it being ruled by a Kyushu clan (Kato) for some time.

I think the Hungary problem could be solved a little by adding Slovak culture in (pre 1.12 term) Poszony and Szepes, and Trasilvanian in Maros, Bihar and Hunyad so it would be easier for Hungary to expand (ie. easier to get accepted cultures).

The problem with this is that Slovak identity didn't exist until the Slovak language was perceived as such (rather than lots of small languages), and the person responsible for this was born in 1815. How that translates to EU4 is another matter. The provinces thought of themselves as Slavic of some description, but not Slovak, so... I suppose that's why Paradox did the easy thing and called them all Hungarian. I'm not annoyed at them.
 
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Grand Historian

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What of Tosa province itself? It seems to have historically had a rather independent spirit, being the base for the Chosokabe invasions and - more significantly, albeit not in the EUIV timeframe - the birthplace of Sakamoto Ryoma and a major centre for the Meiji Restoration. Re Iyo, another thing to consider would be it being ruled by a Kyushu clan (Kato) for some time.

True, though the Kato themselves were originally from Kansai and would later lose Higo. I would argue that Satsuma and Choshu were more important to the Meiji Restoration, and Tosa only joined in to keep them from gaining to much power when it became apparent that war was unavoidable, but that's not really relevant to the topic. While Tosa Samurai were pretty independent, they did pretty much roll over dead (the Chosokabe at least) when Hideyoshi invaded after a halfhearted initial resistance, so it wouldn't be to far a cry from that standpoint either to make them Yamato.

So, I suppose Tosa/Iyo/Western Shikoku is one of those grey areas; it could be Kyushu, it could be Yamato, or we could turn all of Shikoku into it's own culture (but then we would probably have to do that to Chugoku too, and that would end up making a bit of a mess of things unless if Japan's map got expanded at the level that Italy did), but there are arguments for all sides.
 

EldarPanic

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All south slavs should be part of the gypsie culture group***troll-mode off***
The south slavs are ok as they are especially for the serbs-croats-bulgarians I kinda dont like that romanian is in there ,it shoud be in a Carpathian group with hungarian and transylvanian culture.
 
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The problem with this is that Slovak identity didn't exist until the Slovak language was perceived as such (rather than lots of small languages), and the person responsible for this was born in 1815. How that translates to EU4 is another matter. The provinces thought of themselves as Slavic of some description, but not Slovak, so... I suppose that's why Paradox did the easy thing and called them all Hungarian. I'm not annoyed at them.
Slovak language started to develope in 16th century. Man which standardized this language was born in 1815. There was Slovak language before. Here's the link if you would like to read: link .
 

Thravid

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@Thravid, you have no coherent argument on what is IRL culture and what is in-game culture. You just dismiss everything. Yes French had cultural ties to Iberian and Italy because of the Romance tradition. Is that disputed? Bulgarian is a slavic language and bears shit in the woods. Greek = Greek, Byzantine Greek = Greek, Byzantine =/= Greek. We are talking about an overarching cultural group that brings people together and you're on the defensive as if we're talking about Greek primacy or something. If you identify closer to Muslim Kazan Tartars than to your neighbours that's your prerogative. And I am under no obligation to save the lost kids of the internet so..
HAHA can't win an argument. Proof Bulgarians are Greek? You have none. There is absolutely NO relation between Greeks and Bulgarians
 
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