Can we talk about the 3 designers?

[Corpse Fool]

Same here. Fiddling with things like equipment designs, division templates, the spirits of the various armed forces, etc... is as much fun for me as actually fighting the wars. I only play single player, so I'm in no hurry.

If those are the sorts of things you like, I'd like to try to supplement your leisure time with some suggestions. Sprocket, ultimate admiral dreadnoughts, and stuff like robocraft.

No the airframes aren’t like tank chassis. A more modern airframe will give you more agility. And from the looks agility is still important. I’m not going to say it’s still king, the jury’s still out on that.

I'd say it's still a viable comparison, with agility being the counterpart of the armour stat. The dynamics aren't exactly the same, but at the core the armour bonus could be a 2.8x swing in combat performance, while agility similarly acts as a force multiplier. Even such an overwhelmingly good multi tended to not be appealing enough to warrant investment into armour, I had seen numerous discussions where people left with the idea to treat armour as a dumpstat, even afterwards of buffing it to 40% highest and 8.5% per tick.

That can largely be attributed to just how much piercing is floating around out there, but the piercing is only floating around out there because so many people are rushing the AT techs, because that line has the most attacks against the priority targets (tanks) without being cost prohibitive (super heavy cannons...) or sacrificing too much performance against non-priority. In much the same way, the talk of the forum for fighters at least seems to also be leaning towards just spamming guns.

This sort of min-maxing is largely being fueled by the limitations of the research slots. Since you 'want' to dedicate 4+ of your slots to developing your snowball (construction, industry, tools, research, maybe resources/oil/radar), really only the majors have enough wiggle room to develop things outside of that, though most players will sac some slots to grab at least some of the more powerful techs. This is why tactical bombers used to be such a common pick ove cas/nav/strat, because it could cas+nav+strat while only needing one research slot to develop rather than 2 or 3. It's also why AT gun rushing more or less replaced chassis rush for tanks.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

I guess the question is why are people trying to play a “grand” strategy in 4 hours?

no one really cares how long the war part lasts, but sitting around from '36 - '39 on top of lobby simulators is painful. 4 speed lasts 1-1.5 hours for that span in most mods, 3 speed takes 2.5-3.

anyway it's the tediousness that really gets most people, i don't enjoy the designers any more in SP than MP

 

[Corpse Fool]

the too many clicks issue seems like it can be solved by slowing game speed.

There are things in the game that people like, and there are things in the game that people dislike. Different people like/dislike different things. I think most people would be very hard pressed to find a game that 100% matched their tastes, and they would probably be the only person with such compatability. There will basically always be some part of a game that someone doesnt like and would prefer to avoid, though depending on the particular ratio of likes to dislikes, they might be willing to look past the dislikes and play it anyway.

Some people just straight up dont like the designers. Pausing or slowing the game so that less time passes in the game or whatever to avoid missing a critical moment, doesnt help. The problem isnt losing time, the problem is that these rabbitholes exist to begin with.

What if every minute (a wild ace has appeared!) There was a pop-up (a wild ace has appeared!) that you had to (a wild ace has appeared!) click the right answer(a wild ace has appeared!) to make it go (a wild ace has appeared!) away for the next (a wild ace has appeared!) minute, clicking the wrong (a wild ace has appeared!) one would just cycle (a wild ace has appeared!) the question and move (a wild ace has appeared!) the buttons around. Even (a wild ace has appeared!) if the content of (a wild ace has appeared!) it was related to (a wild ace has appeared!) the game/setting/choices (a wild ace has appeared!) you have made in (a wild ace has appeared!) the game, or imparted (a wild ace has appeared!) some sort of bonus... (a wild ace has appeared!) that would be painful (a wild ace has appeared!) for most people, I (a wild ace has appeared!) would think.

 

[MrMcQue]

Honestly who has played the original HOI4 and post designer HOI4?

Navy designer vs past fixed ships:

Who really gets to use the naval designer? I mean we all may make a less crappy DD, upgrade our sub, but who really has the time to go refit the BB or CAs? Much less research the 44s in time for the war short of splurging for them which all the major naval powers don't need or are limited to a treaty that makes it useless. At least the old designer gave us the actual the ship design names

Tank designer:

XP cost, unless you're Germany is too high XP wise to design a tank and division and you need to rush the 1940 tanks to have anything of value no matter who you are. They're slow to build so going into TDs, Light Tanks, etc is mostly useless unless your country already had them then you can just add onto them if you so choose (in SP). Overall nice idea but either it makes meta gimmicks from MP or is something you barely mess with because building the best takes too long and if you make trash you need a lot of trash. Still it did keep the names so a 1940 American medium is named a Sherman or the German 1940 is a Panzer IV

Aircraft designer:

Lots of options, really really jumped the shark even compared to the Tank designer as far as realism goes, and you have to name everything on your own. Who is this for ultimately? Why not just let us rush jets from 1936 at this point? I don't get the appeal other than stacking an unrealistic amount of guns onto frames that doesn't make sense anymore. At least the Tank designer if you pushed for anything too outlandish took so long to make it defeated the purpose. Air battles are now easier than ever and I am facing less opposition.

I get it you wanna sell us DLC Paradox and we want to buy it, but the idea of the designers I assume was to allow players to have different play styles in MP but clearly that's not what's occurring and in SP it's just limiting our options because the game is being built for the smaller MP base.

Honestly I would rather have equipment for reflective of the country in question: like high reliability on a Russian tank compared to a German one. I know Paradox tries to do this but the meta overrides all of it. It seems like everytime these are added we get close to being real time "Axis v Allies".

I like the Naval designer if i'm honest, and ships are big and varied enough so that none of the designs are too outlandish. Balance becomes an issue though.

The tank designer was meh. I'm not entirely against it i guess.

However i absolutely, and i said this already even before PDX announced it, hate the aircraft designer and believe it's inclusion was a big mistake.

There just wasn't enough variation in planes, that wasn't covered by the different models + upgrade buttons, that warrants it's inclusion. Fighters were so small there was relatively little that changed in their basic form. The biggest difference probably was the building materials for some, however wooden planes for example could be perfectly replicated with just ommiting certain materials from the production requirements.

Fighter 2's are inherently similar to each other, strat 2's are inherently similar to each other, and so on. What is there that couldn't be represented by different models?

And don't get me started on the fact that most of the flavor is completely gone if i instead of building a plane with a historical picture, model and name, now build "Improved Small frame 3".

And i doubt there has ever been a fighter with 4+2+2 guns slapped onto it.

It's sad, i like all the other features BBA so i wont disable the DLC, but man, if there is a way to disable the designer on it's own, i'd do it every time. Because i doubt they'll remove it, the most realistic way to fix it would be to make selectable, historical presets. Basically make every plane that was aviable through research previously be aviable as a preset now.

 

[Cpt.Cross]

So many people here disagreeing with the Designers. Where are you guys when they announce these things and everyone who disagrees with adding them/doesnt like the implementation gets mass down voted?

 

[pro.gamer.69]

Fighter 2's are inherently similar to each other, strat 2's are inherently similar to each other, and so on. What is there that couldn't be represented by different models?

I think part of it may have been a hope that a designer/variants would allow older airframes to be at least moderately competitive against new ones. Pre BBA 100 fighter 2s could take on 500 fighter 1s and win, which contrasted hard against history where older planes continued to be produced late into the war. The tank designer made it so older chassis were viable (in fact, it made it so it was basically a guaranteed detriment to ever use newer ones than '36), so it's possible the air designer was intended to/will too.

But I agree that neither the tank nor plane designer does anything the old button variant system couldn't do far more simply, and quickly, other than add "immersion" for the sliver of people in the venn diagram of those who care about roleplay who aren't also in the circle that knows enough about history to recognize the ahistoricity of most of the designs. Ships (can) function as units/divisions, having a more complex system for them makes sense, even if it's incredibly tedious. But for equipment it's a bridge too far imo (Belgium + Brazil + naval and air combat + special forces DLC name idea?)

 

[batata1]

So many people here disagreeing with the Designers. Where are you guys when they announce these things and everyone who disagrees with adding them/doesnt like the implementation gets mass down voted?

1. It's about 5 MP players saying it's bad for MP. When the tank designer got announced it got 650 upvotes. There aren't close to enough MP players to win votes.
2. MP is played in mods. If we dislike a feature sufficiently, it doesn't get implemented. BICE and TW still don't have a tank designer, WA's tank designer is basically fake and it implemented BBA without a plane designer.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

I use the Designers, because you can build up realistic Ships, Tanks and Planes. Esp. if you use Mods which upgrades that System like the Ultra-Realistic. I suggest you all play them and you see why the Designers are a must have then the scrappy 08/15-XP-Waste from the original Game until that get completely Refited for Ships, Tanks and now Planes.

 

[vermicious knid]

If those are the sorts of things you like, I'd like to try to supplement your leisure time with some suggestions. Sprocket, ultimate admiral dreadnoughts, and stuff like robocraft.

Thanks man. I'll check those out.

 

[Big_Smokes]

It seems like there are two issues with designers vis a vis MP—balance and “lol too many clicks”.

the balance issue is 100% valid, paradox has never been great about balance.

the too many clicks issue seems like it can be solved by slowing game speed. That obviously won’t fly for the crowd who speed runs a MP game in 4 hours—but then I guess the question is why are people trying to play a “grand” strategy in 4 hours?

Because it's not that easy to get a group of identical 20+ individuals together to play a game, nor does everyone have enough free time to dedicate to playing games. There are already very few people that actually play these games multiplayer because they are intimidated by the time requirement. And honestly, I think most of the MP community just like the unique style of play that HOI4 MP offers. It's a different kind of teamplay / warfare then you'll find in most games, which also makes it the primary attraction.

Besides, the grand in grand strategy doesn't necessarily represent the amount of time you have to spend on it. And honestly, once you've gotten used to playing hoi4 mp, there's no reason not to play the majority on speed 4. The early game, once played enough times, can be a little boring. (Staring at your construction queues for 3 hours straight is not something anyone enjoys, right?)

 

[Hoi Neuling]

It seems like there are two issues with designers vis a vis MP—balance and “lol too many clicks”.

the balance issue is 100% valid, paradox has never been great about balance.

the too many clicks issue seems like it can be solved by slowing game speed. That obviously won’t fly for the crowd who speed runs a MP game in 4 hours—but then I guess the question is why are people trying to play a “grand” strategy in 4 hours?

Because it's not that easy to get a group of identical 20+ individuals together to play a game, nor does everyone have enough free time to dedicate to playing games. There are already very few people that actually play these games multiplayer because they are intimidated by the time requirement. And honestly, I think most of the MP community just like the unique style of play that HOI4 MP offers. It's a different kind of teamplay / warfare then you'll find in most games, which also makes it the primary attraction.

Besides, the grand in grand strategy doesn't necessarily represent the amount of time you have to spend on it. And honestly, once you've gotten used to playing hoi4 mp, there's no reason not to play the majority on speed 4. The early game, once played enough times, can be a little boring. (Staring at your construction queues for 3 hours straight is not something anyone enjoys, right?)

That´s why MP Games get mostly Shooters like Medal of Honor etc., RPG like WoW / Star Wars or very easy Games of other Gernes (new XCOM, C&C and similar).

The Hoi Series is an exception of that. You have to integrate normal Players, Experts, Multi-Player-Gamers, Modders etc. and bring in Features like the Designers as well as Brain Using Parts to make it interessting for all Gamers and esp. Modders. If I wanna play Multiplayer, I play WoW.

 

[Big_Smokes]

That´s why MP Games get mostly Shooters like Medal of Honor etc., RPG like WoW / Star Wars or very easy Games of other Gernes (new XCOM, C&C and similar).

The Hoi Series is an exception of that. You have to integrate normal Players, Experts, Multi-Player-Gamers, Modders etc. and bring in Features like the Designers as well as Brain Using Parts to make it interessting for all Gamers and esp. Modders. If I wanna play Multiplayer, I play WoW.

To each their own of course! Though I've met a lot of cool people playing hoi4 MP, and it's definitely been one of my favorite pasttimes over the last few years.

Anyway, back on topic: I don't believe the designer was made with MP as a priority in the slightest. I think most things done to this game are always done with singleplayer in mind first and foremost. At the end of the day, most avid MP players play with mods, so why not leave MP balancing to the modders?

 

[Hoi Neuling]

To each their own of course! Though I've met a lot of cool people playing hoi4 MP, and it's definitely been one of my favorite pasttimes over the last few years.

Anyway, back on topic: I don't believe the designer was made with MP as a priority in the slightest. I think most things done to this game are always done with singleplayer in mind first and foremost. At the end of the day, most avid MP players play with mods, so why not leave MP balancing to the modders?

I personaly don´t like MP about to much bad experiance with other Gamers. But if some of the Community wanna play it, they should do it and not moan about the refited important Features which makes the Game interessting.

The Devs give us an very good playable Game with a lot of new Integrations, Refits, Reworks, Bugfixes from all Features from Version 1.3 up to 1.12 and aren´t done yet. That the Game is based on an easy to learn, easy to play SP with MP-Ability, are the first Reason why so many People play it.

The second big Reason is the big Modding-Ability. Without the Groundwork for every small, medium and big new Version-Upgrade incl. DLC the Modders can´t work to assist the Devs with new Ideas, small / medium / big Mods. And there I give you right, some of them are desigend for MP-Games in all Parts better then for SP.

There we have 2 Options like you said already: We play the Original what we get from the Devs with smaller Graphic-Mods / Sound-Mods / Reality-Mods or big Mods like the 1910, 1930 etc. which are a very good balance between SP and MP. I testet them too and find the Ultra Historical (which get an Adjustement to 1.12) the best one.

Sadly the Mods are in over 90% the Cases only English. That means not good Englisch-speaking People play the Original in their own Language. I personaly play the Game in my Homelanguage preferably too.

 

[Nawolith]

So many people here disagreeing with the Designers. Where are you guys when they announce these things and everyone who disagrees with adding them/doesnt like the implementation gets mass down voted?

I did complain about it back then. I got downvoted to hell...

 

[Big_Smokes]

I personaly don´t like MP about to much bad experiance with other Gamers. But if some of the Community wanna play it, they should do it and not moan about the refited important Features which makes the Game interessting.

The Devs give us an very good playable Game with a lot of new Integrations, Refits, Reworks, Bugfixes from all Features from Version 1.3 up to 1.12 and aren´t done yet. That the Game is based on an easy to learn, easy to play SP with MP-Ability, are the first Reason why so many People play it.

The second big Reason is the big Modding-Ability. Without the Groundwork for every small, medium and big new Version-Upgrade incl. DLC the Modders can´t work to assist the Devs with new Ideas, small / medium / big Mods. And there I give you right, some of them are desigend for MP-Games in all Parts better then for SP.

There we have 2 Options like you said already: We play the Original what we get from the Devs with smaller Graphic-Mods / Sound-Mods / Reality-Mods or big Mods like the 1910, 1930 etc. which are a very good balance between SP and MP. I testet them too and find the Ultra Historical (which get an Adjustement to 1.12) the best one.

Sadly the Mods are in over 90% the Cases only English. That means not good Englisch-speaking People play the Original in their own Language. I personaly play the Game in my Homelanguage preferably too.

You'll quickly find that the average HOI4 MP players' favorite pastime is inhaling industrial amounts of copium, therefore anything that has any effect on the games' MP aspect will be coped about. This is the way. As for mod languages, well, it's an international community. I don't think you can blame the modders for not translating their mods into every language lol. I understand what you mean, though.

That being said, I don't really see why people that play MP can't desire quality of life improvements for the part of the game they love. It's a feature provided by paradox at the end of the day. They have just as much right as anyone else, I suppose. You can't say x part of the community is allowed to comment on features from their perspective but not the others.

 

[Ironside112]

And i doubt there has ever been a fighter with 4+2+2 guns slapped onto it.

To be fair, 80% of fighters by 1940 were using 4 machine guns and 2 cannons, I think adding the ability to add an extra set of cannons isn't outlandish, especially when you then hamper your agility.

 

[Nameless_Ensign]

So many people here disagreeing with the Designers. Where are you guys when they announce these things and everyone who disagrees with adding them/doesnt like the implementation gets mass down voted?

You can't expect everyone to religiously follow the dev diaries. People tend to ignore things until it directly impacts them, i.e. in a new patch.

 

[Caeric]

To be fair, 80% of fighters by 1940 were using 4 machine guns and 2 cannons, I think adding the ability to add an extra set of cannons isn't outlandish, especially when you then hamper your agility.

Afterwards many transitioned fully to cannons anyhow. 3-4 cannons and few if any mgs became the norm (outside of US sticking to like 6-8 .50 cals instead..)

Anyhow I agree some general presets would be nice.

 

[The Russian Empire]

Give me presets or give me death.

 

[batata1]

I don't really see why people that play MP can't desire quality of life improvements for the part of the game they love. It's a feature provided by paradox at the end of the day.

It's not just that. It's that we see how good a job the top modders do for free, and it really makes you question the quality of what the professionals at Paradox put out.