Can we talk about the 3 designers?

[lilcritt]

Dude I could care less if you think you could beat me in MP. You obviously misread what I wrote and thought I somehow said you shouldn't design a good tank in mp. I didn't write that at all. I said, the designer is meant for SP... because you'll get the most use out of it. NOT that you shouldn't use it at all.

And your "Well I do have time" part of your REE rant is a projecting. You don't always have time in a MP game when you are having to micro. So You can go spend time making your "Perfect" tank. I'll spend my time with good enough tanks and just out micro you.

What are you guys even arguing about...

Seems like you're both arguing making the same points?

 

[batata1]

Dude I could care less if you think you could beat me in MP. You obviously misread what I wrote and thought I somehow said you shouldn't design a good tank in mp. I didn't write that at all. I said, the designer is meant for SP... because you'll get the most use out of it. NOT that you shouldn't use it at all.

And your "Well I do have time" part of your REE rant is a projecting. You don't always have time in a MP game when you are having to micro. So You can go spend time making your "Perfect" tank. I'll spend my time with good enough tanks and just out micro you.

I agree designers are bad for MP, I wrote that on this thread before you did. You wrote designers are bad for MP because "designing a tank or ship or plane is meant to be done when paused so you can see and compare the stats", and I made a factual claim that most good MP players do that pre-game. I'm not sure if you dispute that. On reflection perhaps I should've been more precise and said "pre-game or pre-war"... you do have a couple of hours of peace when you don't need to micro any units so have more time to design equipment

 

[Corpse Fool]

However the big problem I always run into with a lot of players in MP is when they run into a new problem they get defeatist and ether rage quit or cry to the host to ban that tactic.

I think this is less a mark of being a bad player, and more the mark of being a bad person, lol.

Or the light attack CA's from the prior versions of HOI. Totally had a relatively cheap and easy counter.

I'm pretty curious what you think that would have been.

So you are right, teamwork is huge in HOI. But I think a team that knows how to adapt to a situation is a better team than one that is rigid on one strategy.

I would agree being adaptable on top of being cohesive is better. But I'll bring back the idea that the balance doesn't really support there being a variety of situations that could be countered/outright defeated with this or that response. Most choices are ultimately just worse than others. If your plan failed, it was either poorly executed or just wasn't a good plan to begin with. What wiggle room there is for playstyle and such, the designers don't really have much impact on that.

 

[Barron of Gondor]

I'm pretty curious what you think that would have been.

Submarine task forces set to attack on high risk and put out on patrol... I would then bait the CA's with a task force of old BB's with some old screens. I put the old BB's on convoy raid in a sea tile 3 or so zones away from his port. When he leaves port he would run into my Subs. Sense he has gone for a lot of light attack CA's; he's not going to have enough screens. My subs will then kill him bit by bit.

You'll have to use your intel network to pull this off. But that should be a given.

 

[palmus]

I really dislike the designers. The concept is fine and I can see why people find it fun. But I don't think they're fun at all. They just add a lot of extra clicking.

Would love to unlock the original designs when I research the techs so I don't have to use the designers. The designer people should of course be able to fiddle around as they can right now.

It's also weird to use the same resource to unlock new tactics and put together new tank designs.

 

[lilcritt]

I really dislike the designers. The concept is fine and I can see why people find it fun. But I don't think they're fun at all. They just add a lot of extra clicking.

Would love to unlock the original designs when I research the techs so I don't have to use the designers. The designer people should of course be able to fiddle around as they can right now.

It's also weird to use the same resource to unlock new tactics and put together new tank designs.

@palmus something like this or similar? https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...figs-on-air-naval-and-army-designers.1545197/

 

[palmus]

@palmus something like this or similar? https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...figs-on-air-naval-and-army-designers.1545197/

Yes, that might keep both groups of people happy.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

so I don't think the in-game time is the real issue.

Well, I have time, because I design my tank before the game.

knowing the design and doing all the clicks are two different things. in peacetime it's not that big a deal, though in 1 hour to Danzig modded speed 4 it can get tricky sometimes. but when you're Germany or the USSR, it does get very stressful doing all the clicks once you're at war, even if you have a coop. far more stressful and "difficult" than swapping fighter 2s to pre-BBA upgraded fighter 3s, for example

At the start they were a bit OP, but when they got nerfed a few patches after MTG they were totally able to be countered. But rather than taking the time to understand how to counter Sub 3's; most host's kept the ban on them

some more casual servers may have kept bans because the counter isn't super intuitive players and they had too many games ruined because otherwise competent new UKs weren't really ready for it, but competitive ones didn't ban it because people with thousands of hours "didn't take the time" to understand how to counter sub 3s, they banned them because they were ridiculously cost-effective and because they forced you to massively overbuild convoys so that in the first few months, before you'd killed the subs off, you wouldn't just run out of convoys and fuel and die.

it's not that they're "uncounterable" in that they're hard to kill, but in that it will always cost you far more to kill them then it costs them to make them.

Most of the spam tactics like strat bomber spam have a counter, however that requires a bit of planning to do, so most people just get frustrated.

wrong again. even with harsh rules against flicker bombing, as long as you have yellow air the bomber always gets through. and once you've deleted their airbases and civilian industry then they won't even have yellow air.

Sense he has gone for a lot of light attack CA's; he's not going to have enough screens. My subs will then kill him bit by bit.

maybe the issue here is that you haven't played with good enough people who know how to fully milk sub3s and strats. if someone doesn't have enough screens, regardless of navy build, that's a hard skill issue on their part. and if he/his AC doesn't know how to put out tacs over the seazone by the port that's even more true.

 

[adski42]

I love the designers. I'm a history geek and really like the flexibility they give. That being said, I do like to have presets, something that @Balesir 's Waltzing Matilda mod does really well for tanks.

 

[billcorr]

save their own configs (such a big QoL oversight)

Great idea!

If it was possible design and save a stable of configurations, that could save a lot of mouseclicks.

Prevent injury (carpal tunnel syndrome) associated with the product (HOI4) [hmmm...this is just a random thought....anyone know of any lawsuits against software companies for causing physical injury?]

Back to the idea:

-- Yes, it would be nice to have favorite configurations. Not just for the tank, air, ship designers, but for other aspects of the game, too (e.g. initial game set up, spy missions, build sequence, etc).

 

[Barron of Gondor]

wrong again. even with harsh rules against flicker bombing, as long as you have yellow air the bomber always gets through. and once you've deleted their airbases and civilian industry then they won't even have yellow air.

This again.

Edit: That only happens when you had air wing sizes of 200 of planes. If you broke them up to sizes of around 100 the damage they did was significantly reduced.

 

[DeutschRitter]

For those who complain about presets? All the designers have presets! Just click the blue arrow to create one with the tech you have already researched.

 

[billcorr]

Just click the blue arrow to create one with the tech you have already researched.

"the blue arrow" ?

There is no blue arrow!

(I bet there is a blue arrow. But since I've never seen it, it does not exist. -- As you might surmise, I am being silly. The point is, I've not appreciated the blue arrow, and am unaware of the power of the blue arrow.)

 

[pro.gamer.69]

For those who complain about presets? All the designers have presets! Just click the blue arrow to create one with the tech you have already researched.

those ones are neither historical nor good, though, satisfying no one.

 

[The Colonel]

At least the Tank designer if you pushed for anything too outlandish took so long to make it defeated the purpose.

Want to put this out there as the first step of my crusade: THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE. The literal meta in anything close to vanilla is to make interwar heavy tank destroyers with 3 or 4 small turrets because it allows you stack the most soft and (most importantly for fighting other tanks) hard attack. It's a baffling meta largely enabled because the interwar heavy tank chassis has more reliability than the 1936 one. Waiting for 1940 chassis is a fool's errand when you can be producing tanks from essentially day 1 as a major, then convert them to have a good gun later.

I don't think that what was done historically has to be the absolute peak meta, but interwar tanks covered in turrets is the exact opposite of what actually worked and something I deeply despise, yet I myself make them now (and make medium tanks with the max-allowed 2 turrets) because it works best.

Also, I dont think there is really a good enough balance to promote a sort of triangular/etc counter rotation that adaptability can serve like in other RTS.

IMO this is just a fundamental fact of how HOI4 works (with production lines taking a long time to ramp up). If your opponent did something that you didn't either expect or figure out thru espionage/other intel sources, you will simply be dead before you can formulate a response.

I said, the designer is meant for SP... because you'll get the most use out of it.

I don't know, the people I know who play competitive MP spend wayyyyy more time thinking about tank templates than anyone else I know. I sure have spent a lot more time thinking about it and learned a ton since I started playing MP. I mean, I don't disagree that casual SP is the vast majority of the playerbase, but it's the competitive MP players who dig the most into whatever systems they're given.

 

[Barron of Gondor]

I don't know, the people I know who play competitive MP spend wayyyyy more time thinking about tank templates than anyone else I know. I sure have spent a lot more time thinking about it and learned a ton since I started playing MP. I mean, I don't disagree that casual SP is the vast majority of the playerbase, but it's the competitive MP players who dig the most into whatever systems they're given.

In most MP games once the war kicks off people don't tinker with their tanks very often. They plan for 1941 tech and very rarely ever change it. SPG's and Tank destroyers are sometimes seen but not often. Most Germany's or Soviets never upgrade to the 1943 guns on their tanks. It's really only the tank minors who will upgrade that. It's best to plan for mid game tech and pump out a lot of it, then tell your minors to worry about making the good tanks.

 

[vermicious knid]

I love the designers. I'm a history geek and really like the flexibility they give. That being said, I do like to have presets, something that @Balesir 's Waltzing Matilda mod does really well for tanks.

Same here. Fiddling with things like equipment designs, division templates, the spirits of the various armed forces, etc... is as much fun for me as actually fighting the wars. I only play single player, so I'm in no hurry.

 

[The Colonel]

Most Germany's or Soviets never upgrade to the 1943 guns on their tanks.

In the games I play, most Germanies and Soviets are more or less hard-rushing AT tech from day one to get the Advanced High Velocity gun as soon as possible. It's one of the Soviets' main advantages that they have 4 artillery tech buffs in their tree, including 2 ahead of time ones, allowing them to get the gun well before Barbarossa starts. Yes, once you get the last gun, no one really touches their tank design, but why would you?

Sadly, using the later tank chasses provides such minor benefits that it's never worthwhile to upgrade to a new one due to the massive loss of efficiency, whereas people did use fighter 3. I worry with the new plane designer that we will see a lot of 1936 airframes with 1944 engines and guns.

 

[Barron of Gondor]

Sadly, using the later tank chasses provides such minor benefits that it's never worthwhile to upgrade to a new one due to the massive loss of efficiency, whereas people did use fighter 3. I worry with the new plane designer that we will see a lot of 1936 airframes with 1944 engines and guns.

No the airframes aren’t like tank chassis. A more modern airframe will give you more agility. And from the looks agility is still important. I’m not going to say it’s still king, the jury’s still out on that. But a 1940 fighter with 1940 tech will beat a 1936 fighter with 1940 tech. BUT.. this does give the opportunity to make interceptor wings with your old fighters.

Say your Germany and your getting bombed in Bavaria(or wherever you keep your refineries) you can refit your old ME 109’s to have cannons on them, put them on interception and shoot down the bombers.

 

[Sourlol]

It seems like there are two issues with designers vis a vis MP—balance and “lol too many clicks”.

the balance issue is 100% valid, paradox has never been great about balance.

the too many clicks issue seems like it can be solved by slowing game speed. That obviously won’t fly for the crowd who speed runs a MP game in 4 hours—but then I guess the question is why are people trying to play a “grand” strategy in 4 hours?