Can we talk about the 3 designers?

[bigredsnake]

Honestly who has played the original HOI4 and post designer HOI4?

Navy designer vs past fixed ships:

Who really gets to use the naval designer? I mean we all may make a less crappy DD, upgrade our sub, but who really has the time to go refit the BB or CAs? Much less research the 44s in time for the war short of splurging for them which all the major naval powers don't need or are limited to a treaty that makes it useless. At least the old designer gave us the actual the ship design names

Tank designer:

XP cost, unless you're Germany is too high XP wise to design a tank and division and you need to rush the 1940 tanks to have anything of value no matter who you are. They're slow to build so going into TDs, Light Tanks, etc is mostly useless unless your country already had them then you can just add onto them if you so choose (in SP). Overall nice idea but either it makes meta gimmicks from MP or is something you barely mess with because building the best takes too long and if you make trash you need a lot of trash. Still it did keep the names so a 1940 American medium is named a Sherman or the German 1940 is a Panzer IV

Aircraft designer:

Lots of options, really really jumped the shark even compared to the Tank designer as far as realism goes, and you have to name everything on your own. Who is this for ultimately? Why not just let us rush jets from 1936 at this point? I don't get the appeal other than stacking an unrealistic amount of guns onto frames that doesn't make sense anymore. At least the Tank designer if you pushed for anything too outlandish took so long to make it defeated the purpose. Air battles are now easier than ever and I am facing less opposition.

I get it you wanna sell us DLC Paradox and we want to buy it, but the idea of the designers I assume was to allow players to have different play styles in MP but clearly that's not what's occurring and in SP it's just limiting our options because the game is being built for the smaller MP base.

Honestly I would rather have equipment for reflective of the country in question: like high reliability on a Russian tank compared to a German one. I know Paradox tries to do this but the meta overrides all of it. It seems like everytime these are added we get close to being real time "Axis v Allies".

 

[Nitros14]

You can add way too many guns to planes, and the lack of presets is a hassle. Also hard to tell what everything is if you use the default names and looks stupid when you see an afteraction naval report.

I actually like the naval designer best of the three.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

but the idea of the designers I assume was to allow players to have different play styles in MP

designers were not for MP at all, most "serious" MP players don't really care for them since they're a lot of extra clicks to do when you can't pause and were pretty clearly intended for the more roleplay-focused SP playerbase. we could have just as easily had an expanded version of the old "press button to increase stats and decrease others" buttons from pre-NSB, with certain levels of button click locked behind different technology years. wouldn't have been nearly as immersive but would have been far simpler UI-wise and way more straightforward (no searching around 10 different tech tabs to find what unlocks which modules like new players must now)

still they did actually allow different playstyles in a way, you can mix super cheap lights with one high armor medium, high attack TDs with meh attack, high breakthrough tanks, not ever use heavies, etc. again though that was all achievable with an expansion of the old system. same goes for planes. only for ships is a designer really justified and even then it's a massive pain having to go through and make "meta" variants of every single cruiser and heavy ship, even if you aren't doing a single bit of navy module research... i would rather not have had it as well and paid money for something else instead

and of course now you have quite a fair number of players and modders asking for and implamenting infantry kit designers, artillery designers, etc... for some people fun and complexity are linearly related which is fine - preferences are what they are - but is definitely pushing game design in a very tedious direction imo

 

[Nawolith]

I am not a fan of the designers. It made me stay off tanks and probably airplanes now too. Id love an option to turn it on and off in gamerules, if you have the DLC.

 

[makson]

I just want an game option to disable designers (and get some basic designs when technology is reached instead).

 

[AnssiA]

I agree. The designers are way more trouble than they are worth, not to mention very confusing when it comes to rules regarding refitting and upgrading. You end up with ton slightly different designs which is unnecessary micro. The XP cost also means that in optimal run you should never do any additional designs.

 

[batata1]

the idea of the designers I assume was to allow players to have different play styles in MP

1. Nothing gets done for MP. Too few players.
2. Designers are a nightmare for MP. In MP, balance is critical. Designers make balance hard. Several MP mods have not implemented the tank designer for this reason, several who did are struggling to balance it. I was in an MP game where the Germans didn't know how to design a tank and the game ended in 1941 because they couldn't pierce the Soviet tanks. So that was just it, game over.

 

[lilcritt]

I think presets would help

Presets will allow those who dgaf about designing to pick already outfitted planes by the devs, or save their own configs (such a big QoL oversight). This would also allow AI to use more accurate historical designs as they could choose only appropriate presets.

They could just set the presets to be available when the appropriate airframe is researched, but unlocked with the proper amount of XP in the designer. For instance, Germany researches the small airframe, they unlock the Bf-109, but need to 'buy' it with like 55 air XP.

Then copy + paste into tank and navy designer. Not sure why the devs didnt think of adding that. The designers take so much time to figure out + design. Half the time just repeating your 'meta' designs in games, adding so much unnecessary work imo.

ADDED SUGGESTION

 

[safe-keeper]

Tried a short 1936-1938 run of BBA (I'm a student who has to save money, so I just tried and refunded it for now), and found myself disappointed by the aircraft designer. Not really that many options, you can't even equip your airplanes with rockets as far as I could tell*. Then again, you do have a good deal of approaches to choose from (lots of fuel, lots of armour, wood as material, how many engines, etc.), so maybe it's just a case of me getting a bad first impression of the designer.

I think maybe what's needed is some inherent differences between countries, or some slightly randomized research findings or something (tech teams, Vicky2-style discoveries, national spirits, country-unique techs, what have you), to encourage different countries to go with different kinds of designs. Obviously a problem is that we have the benefit of hindsight and access to a full understanding of how components and stats will work out, so we can go for what we consider optimal, instead of having to work with what we have.

Maybe if you had different approaches to choose from initially (which decided what components and stats you could go with), and then actual experience from the battlefield unlocked different design approaches, that would make gameplay more interesting and challenging. Like, the Germans would be 'forced' to build tanks a certain way, and then would learn from experience in France and on the Eastern Front. Maybe bring back some kind of HoI2 tech teams? I get that this would go against the sandbox nature of the game, though.

I think presets would help

I would love this, too. The people who use the designers can use these as a base, and the people who don't like designers can just go with these presets, perhaps with a minor tweak or two.

Also the Auto feature needs to work well, obviously.

*corrected by post below, editing so I don't mislead anyone.

 

[Barron of Gondor]

100% disagree that the designers are for MP. They take far to many clicks and far to much attention to be MP focused. The average MP game is set to speed 4 pre war and speed 3 during the war, and only pauses when Spain kicks off, or when something goes wrong with the connection. Designing a tank or ship or plane is meant to be done when paused so you can see and compare the stats. Not when its 1941 and the Germans just invaded the USSR. Most MP games don't use SPG's as much anymore because it takes to much decision making power away form the player. Unless you've got a coop or are a tank minor you'll not be spending much time upgrading your tanks to use that new gun you've just unlocked.

I really do love the designers in a single player, or 2 or 3 player MP game with your friends (ones where you can pause). You can make some very cool stuff, and it truly adds to the game. But in a MP game with 10 or so players it's impractical

 

[Nitros14]

I'd really be in favour of adding pre-set designs to the designers, so you customize if you want but it's not such a terrible hassle if you would prefer to not have a ton of micro.

You researched medium tank 1940 as the Soviet Union? Alright here's a T-34 design ready to go.

You researched improved small airframe as Britain? Here's a Spitfire.

I know it would take some jigging with the weapon techs and all but it would be a supreme quality of life improvement.

 

[batata1]

Designing a tank or ship or plane is meant to be done when paused so you can see and compare the stats. Not when its 1941 and the Germans just invaded the USSR. Most MP games don't use SPG's as much anymore because it takes to much decision making power away form the player. Unless you've got a coop or are a tank minor you'll not be spending much time upgrading your tanks to use that new gun you've just unlocked

A good MP player is expected to design the equipment pre-game, so in game all they have to do is click a design they already know. So I don't think the in-game time is the real issue.

 

[krios41]

you can't even equip your airplanes with rockets as far as I could tell.

you can, you just gotta research the first tier of rocket artillery

 

[Barron of Gondor]

A good MP player is expected to design the equipment pre-game, so in game all they have to do is click a design they already know. So I don't think the in-game time is the real issue.

I have a different idea on what a good player is. To me understanding the mechanics and systems, and using that understanding to adapt to various set of circumstances is what makes a good player. Not having a pre designed templet that is the current meta. A bad player can pump out good tanks if that's what he was told to make in a Youtube video.

 

[Corpse Fool]

I have a different idea on what a good player is. To me understanding the mechanics and systems, and using that understanding to adapt to various set of circumstances is what makes a good player. Not having a pre designed templet that is the current meta. A bad player can pump out good tanks if that's what he was told to make in a Youtube video.

I think the difference here is that hoi4 mp tends to be more of a team effort. Adaptability might help an individual, but cohesion tends to benefit teams.

Also, I dont think there is really a good enough balance to promote a sort of triangular/etc counter rotation that adaptability can serve like in other RTS.

 

[safe-keeper]

you can, you just gotta research the first tier of rocket artillery

Aaaaaah. That makes sense. Thank you.

 

[batata1]

I have a different idea on what a good player is. To me understanding the mechanics and systems, and using that understanding to adapt to various set of circumstances is what makes a good player. Not having a pre designed templet that is the current meta. A bad player can pump out good tanks if that's what he was told to make in a Youtube video.

Have you actually played MP? Because that is not how MP works, in my experience. Most servers play every week and the meta is relatively consistent. So if you don't have a build planned at all, you are either completely inexperienced or stupid, and people are going to resist letting you on a major nation because you're likely to be uncompetitive and ruin the game.

You're admitting it in what you write. You say you can't design a good tank because there's no time. Well, I have time, because I design my tank before the game. So I'm going to beat you, assuming our skill levels are otherwise similar.

It is true that adaptability is a mark of the best players, and that many players lack that skill, but that absolutely does not mean having a plan makes you a bad player.

 

[Barron of Gondor]

I think the difference here is that hoi4 mp tends to be more of a team effort. Adaptability might help an individual, but cohesion tends to benefit teams.

Also, I dont think there is really a good enough balance to promote a sort of triangular/etc counter rotation that adaptability can serve like in other RTS.

Yes I agree it's a team effort. However the big problem I always run into with a lot of players in MP is when they run into a new problem they get defeatist and ether rage quit or cry to the host to ban that tactic. Take Sub 3's for example. At the start they were a bit OP, but when they got nerfed a few patches after MTG they were totally able to be countered. But rather than taking the time to understand how to counter Sub 3's; most host's kept the ban on them. Or the light attack CA's from the prior versions of HOI. Totally had a relatively cheap and easy counter. But if you asked some of the average MP players they would have no idea how to handle that without other light attack CA's or planes. (I know they took light attack CA's away in the latest patch). Most of the spam tactics like strat bomber spam have a counter, however that requires a bit of planning to do, so most people just get frustrated.

So you are right, teamwork is huge in HOI. But I think a team that knows how to adapt to a situation is a better team than one that is rigid on one strategy.

 

[lilcritt]

I'd really be in favour of adding pre-set designs to the designers, so you customize if you want but it's not such a terrible hassle if you would prefer to not have a ton of micro.

You researched medium tank 1940 as the Soviet Union? Alright here's a T-34 design ready to go.

You researched improved small airframe as Britain? Here's a Spitfire.

I know it would take some jigging with the weapon techs and all but it would be a supreme quality of life improvement.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/massive-qol-suggestion-presets-configs-on-air-naval-and-army-designers.1545197/

 

[Barron of Gondor]

Have you actually played MP? Because that does not reflect the reality of how MP works, in my experience. Most servers play every week and the meta is relatively consistent. So if you don't have a build planned at all, you are either completely inexperienced or stupid, and people are going to resist letting you on a major nation because you're likely to be uncompetitive and ruin the game.

You're admitting it in what you write. You say you can't design a good tank because there's no time. Well, I have time, because I design my tank before the game. So I'm going to beat you, assuming our skill levels are otherwise similar.

It is true that adaptability is a mark of the best players, and that many players lack that skill, but that absolutely does not mean having a plan makes you a bad player.

Dude I could care less if you think you could beat me in MP. You obviously misread what I wrote and thought I somehow said you shouldn't design a good tank in mp. I didn't write that at all. I said, the designer is meant for SP... because you'll get the most use out of it. NOT that you shouldn't use it at all.

And your "Well I do have time" part of your REE rant is a projecting. You don't always have time in a MP game when you are having to micro. So You can go spend time making your "Perfect" tank. I'll spend my time with good enough tanks and just out micro you.