Can we take another look at Cavalry and Cannons?

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Grand Historian

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I ask this given that it appears the next DLC will focus on (or, at the very least, undeniably give flavor to) Hordes, whose armies can have an unlimited amount of cavalry.

Now, it's pretty much apparent by looking at late-game army compositions, that cavalry is pretty much useless once you hit a certain benchmark. It's very expensive, and in late game when fire becomes dominant, its cost fails to recoup its expenses meaning that most armies will usually only have three-five regiments of cavalry. (While it is beneficial for some nations with Cavalry-focused ideas like PLC/Hungary/Ottomans/et cetera to keep larger amounts of cavalry in their armies, they tend to be the exception that proves the rule.)

Likewise, the amount of cannon regiments in a lategame army can get ridiculous; with there being as much artillery as there are infantry regiments (at no penalty) and many important battles end with more or all the artillery surviving while the infantry are decimated.

So, really, this gist of this thread is this; I feel cannons are a little bit OP, or at the very least far to easy to get and stack, while Cavalry are a bit underpowered. So, here are my suggestions on what can be done;

Increase the cost of artillery - 40 or 50 would be the optimal choices. A cavalry regiment costs 25 ducats at base while an artillery regiment only costs 30. While Cavalry doesn't do the best job of recouping its cost, Artillery does since it can usually leave battles unscathed, so making the cost somewhat more prohibitive will at least make the amount of artillery that is present in a battle less egregious.

Give a tactical penalty for having too much artillery - in the same vein that having too much cavalry in an army is punishing, but I also feel that it should slow down the army's marching speed as well since artillery is much more difficult to move than people and animals. I can't say at which rate it should be, while I personally would want one less than cavalry (20/25/30%), I would be fine with the base 50% as long as there was something punishing you for having as many cannons as men.

Give cavalry the ability to flank artillery/back line - While trying to reduce the amount of artillery is all well and good, cavalry should still be relevant in the late game (Hussars/Uhlans/Cossacks were a major part of most Napoleonic armies). This was an idea someone else proposed in another thread which name escapes me, but it's a really good suggestion; giving cavalry the ability to directly threaten the back line and the artillery would make them important late-game. While I'm certain there would be more to this than just that which needs to be taken into consideration for balancing, I think this would be a really good way to offset late-game artillery while adding realism.
 
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zeredek

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Give different unit types different speed like ships have
I want to be able to detach my cavalry so I can catch that army that's gonna get away otherwise

Boats have it, why can't land units have it?
 
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sesn

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I like the idea to have Cav flank the back line. It gives further incentive to not have these silly 10/0/10 formations. More like 10/.../6 if Cav can flank into the back row. You might want to change the logic behind the unit deployment so that Infantry is deployed in the back row to safeguard the Arty.

Insufficient support is pretty artificial as a mechanism in general imho and adding Arty into the equation makes it significantly harder to calculate or sport quickly. I don't think this is a good solution.

Overall I support these Ideas, though.
 
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grommile

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Give different unit types different speed like ships have
I want to be able to detach my cavalry so I can catch that army that's gonna get away otherwise

Boats have it, why can't land units have it?
Among other reasons, because teaching the AI to use it well enough for such a change to not be a massive nerf to the AI is a lot of effort for a decidedly questionable gameplay benefit.
 
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zeredek

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Among other reasons, because teaching the AI to use it well enough for such a change to not be a massive nerf to the AI is a lot of effort for a decidedly questionable gameplay benefit.
The AI is a massive nerf to the AI already
 
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Aythne

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Give different unit types different speed like ships have
I want to be able to detach my cavalry so I can catch that army that's gonna get away otherwise

Boats have it, why can't land units have it?

EU3 had this. I do not miss it at all. Anything that forces you to do ten times more micro than you would otherwise is not a good mechanic. Not to mention Grommile's point about the AI.
 
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grommile

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Regarding movement speed we also have the "realism" argument that armies the sizes of this game, moving the distances of this game would need enormous supply trains slowing them down regardless of unit type. Its not like you could have 1000 horses gallop from a province to the next and have them battle ready on the day they arrive.

Furthermore I've always assumed that each army carries siege cannons regardless of actual artillery regiments since most artillery types seem more like the field variety. On the other hand picking one artillery type is a rather weird concept to begin with. What army ordered an army solely with leather cannons, arranged them in regiments a 1000 man and deployed them behind entirely cannon free 1000 man units. These leather cannons would also somehow bestow the army with a siege bonus (do the bind large poundage cannons as well in this universe or are the literally using huge bundles of a thousand small leather cannons against the enemy's wall?)

Anyway so I do not think that different unit types should vary in movement speed.
 
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Grand Historian

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Regarding movement speed we also have the "realism" argument that armies the sizes of this game, moving the distances of this game would need enormous supply trains slowing them down regardless of unit type. Its not like you could have 1000 horses gallop from a province to the next and have them battle ready on the day they arrive.

Furthermore I've always assumed that each army carries siege cannons regardless of actual artillery regiments since most artillery types seem more like the field variety. On the other hand picking one artillery type is a rather weird concept to begin with. What army ordered an army solely with leather cannons, arranged them in regiments a 1000 man and deployed them behind entirely cannon free 1000 man units. These leather cannons would also somehow bestow the army with a siege bonus (do the bind large poundage cannons as well in this universe or are the literally using huge bundles of a thousand small leather cannons against the enemy's wall?)

Anyway so I do not think that different unit types should vary in movement speed.

I think you've misunderstood something; I'm not asking that different movement speeds for different units come back, I'm asking that having to much artillery in an army would give a penalty to it that would slow it down in the same way that a general with a high maneuver would speed it up.
 
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Denkt

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My suggestion for cavalry is to add in a breakthrough value. Damage that hit the front unit would be multiplied with the breakthrough value and then applied to the back artillery unit. That mean cavalry would both attack front unit as well as a back row artillery. Breakthrough value would mainly depend on the difference in manuver score between the two generals with the better manunver general would both increase his cavalry breakthrough as well reduce enemy cavalry breakthrough. Maybe cavalry could also protect artillery from enemy cavalry attacks, making cavalry much more important.

Instead of the current system based on tech groups each unit type is assigned a "tactical weight". Example could be Infantry: -1, Cavalry: 1 and artillery: 2. These values are multiplied by the strength of the regiment.

If the sum of the weights are greater then zero then a penalty would be applied. Certain ideas, techs and such would change these values: hordes for example could have a cavalry weight of 0. The beauty of this system is that it is alot more customizable then the old system based on tech groups.
 
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Issac1709

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I think you've misunderstood something; I'm not asking that different movement speeds for different units come back, I'm asking that having to much artillery in an army would give a penalty to it that would slow it down in the same way that a general with a high maneuver would speed it up.
But art is abstracted to have horses pulling it or something... right?
 

nalivayko

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I have to agree that seeing so many artillery regiments is immersion breaking. Some ratio limit would be welcome. Just make sure that the amount of artillery used never exceeds Napoleonic War usage. Currently 40% artillery regiments is often a rule, not an exception. Cap it at 10-20% and introduce a penalty on higher limits, just like with cavalry.
 
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I like this ideas.

As for CAV, why is there no longer any pursuit phase? In EU2 AFAIK there was a persuit phase where the victors CAV would inflict casualties on the looser, then as in real life simply make CAV help defend against this and make ART extra vulnerable to this.

In the late game having massive ART like Napoleons 'Grande Batterie' really was a huge advantage, but was also really really expensive ...hence why most other nations had nothing like it. Likewise historically the scale of victories were often measured in the amount of guns and battle standards captured ...now having guns being capturable would probably unbalance the game too much, but at very least make them susceptible to pursuit.
 
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drayath

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One of the issues with artillery is that in general they never take casualties. This results in them always being at full strength, and actually cheaper than cavalry as you never have to pay the double maintenance cost while reinforcing.

One quick way of changing this would be make artillery spit there shots between the front and back rank of the enemy. This (without reducing overall impact on battle) reduces the enemy front line casualties leaving more for your infantry/calvary to do; Over the course of a battle their impact reduces as they now take casualties (pure infantry reinforcement stacks are now less useful); After battles now need to reinforce or consolidate artillery just like other battle units.
 
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Seeing @Denkt suggested breakthrough, but instead of convoluted way, and adding values etc. make it just simple.

If your cavalry regiment attacks enemy regiment with morale below certain threshold (like 25-50%, could be balanced), it breaks through and deals half it's damage to the back row. (amount of damage could be still balanced and changed to 33%, or damage dealt would be split or whatever).

And also maybe add some additional bonus for having more cavalry - +1 manuveur during battle for having more cavalry (again could be balanced additionaly, with some values and etc.)
 
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hjarg

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All fine ideas here- especially the one about cavalry breaking through to the artillery.

Just don't forget the other part- in lategame, we need huge stacks of arty to properly siege!
 
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andristan

Second Lieutenant
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Dec 31, 2013
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i have to agree with these ideas, especially the breakthrough one, it seems now that as soon as artillery come on the scene certain nations(ottos) some have armies composed of nothing but them and inf, which is pretty weird to see in like the early 16th century
 
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Sarmatian

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Feb 24, 2007
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EU3 had this. I do not miss it at all. Anything that forces you to do ten times more micro than you would otherwise is not a good mechanic. Not to mention Grommile's point about the AI.

There obviously needs to be a balance point, a sweet spot, if you will. More micromanagement is not always a bad thing. We wouldn't accept just one unit type (instead of three we have now), because it would mean "less micro". Or not having provincial supply limits because it would mean "less micro".

I would prefer more strategic options like that, personally.

I'm also starting to loathe the new direction gaming is generally taking - player options get restricted because AI can't deal with them. This is a direction that has been going on for some time. Work on making the AI better, don't limit my options. If given a choice, I'd always, always prefer an option that's abusable by the player rather than one abusable by the AI.
 
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