Can we please just have ships able to disengage if they would die?

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forfor

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Every time my main fleet gets into a meaningful battle, I lose at least half, usually more than half, of my corvettes/frigates. This is with my corvettes having max evasion. I'm not asking for every ship to survive every battle, but it's just so obnoxious having to replace most of your screen, and frigates after every engagement. allowing at least those ships to have some chance to survive getting insta-nuked by disengaging with 1 hp would make things so much better, so that I'm not having to constantly stop and wait for my screen to replenish, or so that I can actually use frigates without feeling like my alloys are being thrown into a black hole for a ship that isn't even going to survive the first few seconds of combat. (You could even set it to 50% of the normal disengage chance for a ship that gets sniped, and I'd probably agree that's a fair tradeoff) Note that this has no direct impact on the viability of any ship type in individual engagements, it only affects the long-term efficiency of building screen ships, which are basically single-use consumables right now.
 
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Methone

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"There's no way to inflict losses in war, please remove this Disengage mechanic!" <- Some other thread

"Please buff the Disengage mechanic, it makes it impossible to use smaller ships!" <- This thread

The duality of man.

More to the point, if your smaller ships are getting one-shot by huge damage, that's good. That means the Huge Damage is successfully countering your fleet. Counter it back.

If the enemy keeps showing rock, stop asking Paradox to buff scissors.
 
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-Marauder-

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The duality of man..
Wouldn't really call it the duality of man. One is a genuine issue. Where in early wars, and later depending on ships with the "Hit and Run" doctrine entire fleets often times end up retreating without a single loss. While in this thread someone is upset their small fragile ships get destroyed by being overkilled. If we did what OP wanted, nothing would die, ever again.
 
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forfor

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To be fair, I've never had the other problem, I've only had this one, so I can only speak to this one. I honestly wouldn't mind if the base disengage chance got reduced, I'm only saying that losing every frigate, and every corvette in every engagement feels bad. Another alternative I thought of is if evasion had an additional chance to cause reduced damage against large and x weapons specifically. Basically, high evasion would allow a % chance at a partial dodge so that smaller ships have the opportunity to get disengaged instead of overkilled.
 
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Kypamop

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In this case it would be better to just remove the disengagement mechanic or lower the chances so much that if you loose you will have to rebuild almost entire fleet anyway. It's much more fair, but the bad side is that experienced players will exploit this to beat AIs even faster, and on the other hand the unexperienced ones will suffer.
There is no good decision in this situation that will satisfy everyone.

I think that the whole fleet combat is too simplified.
The tactics set by combat computers that you build with the ship does not give you flexibility of choice after you leave shipyard. That's the root of the problem.
Ability to choose tactics just before combat and to make some decisions when already engaged into fight is the way to solve all the 'disengagement chance' topics.
 
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Ryika

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I honestly wouldn't mind if the base disengage chance got reduced, I'm only saying that losing every frigate, and every corvette in every engagement feels bad.
Stop replenishing them then? They clearly seem like the wrong ship for the job you want done.
 
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gigabytemon

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I could probably see this working. Ships that white-flag when they know they're going to die can get captured by the enemy fleet as prisoners of war.

What's that? You want your fleet back? No, wait, think about this from the opponent's standpoint.

Every single time you almost destroy the enemy fleet, it disappears. No casualties. Zero.

They always escape. And then they come back fully repaired. And you almost destroy them again.

But they escape. Zero casualties. Again.

And they come back fully repaired. Again.

And you almost destroy them again.

But they just will not die.
 
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Verx90

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Stop replenishing them then? They clearly seem like the wrong ship for the job you want done.
But he seems to be winning, so they are doing jobs.

he just want war to be a complete snowballing , making players having 0 loses and steamrolling an inferior enemy that can't lose theyr fleet, but can't win battles.
 
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grommile

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Every time my main fleet gets into a meaningful battle, I lose at least half, usually more than half, of my corvettes/frigates.
Sounds about right.

"Weapons for killing capital ships have a hard time hitting small ships but instantly obliterate them on a direct hit" is perfectly on-brand for Stellaris's style of exploding-starships sci-fi.
 
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fusei

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My "solution" to this issue is that I use fleets I don't have to rebuild myself, like the federation fleet or mercenary fleets in the early game and once I get battleships I build artillery monofleets and it just becomes a matter of "if you lose any ships at all you didn't bring enough".
 

CocoCincinnati

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This is precisely why I stopped using corvettes in my main battle fleets and relegated frigates to artillery duty only. They simply die too easily when you send them into the teeth of the enemy fleet. One destroyer is more survivable (late game) than two corvettes with only slightly less firepower (which more than balances out if they last longer). Late game corvettes are for patrolling, anti-piracy, quickly taking undefended systems, sieging planets and chasing down damaged enemy fleets.
 

Verx90

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This is precisely why I stopped using corvettes in my main battle fleets and relegated frigates to artillery duty only. They simply die too easily

This is mostly caused by the autodesign of the AI LOVING short-bruiser weapons(even your starbases are forced into it , if you research those weapons) (the cause come from the calculation of fleet power considering DPS more than anything) that shred your corvets . there is a "rock-paper-scissor" of sizes and loadout , but since the AI realy run bruiser weapons ( apart from 2 AI behaviours that predilige rockets) you can go any-fleet-composition, but corvets . since the AI auto-design counter the screen and kill alot of them .
 
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forfor

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I think people are misunderstanding/misconstruing what I'm saying. I'm totally fine with the disengage chance going down overall. I'm only suggesting tiny ships that are prone to being overkilled should have a real opportunity to engage in the disengage mechanic late game where every shot becomes an overkill.
 
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SirBlackAxe

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Allowing ships that haven't used a disengage chance yet to attempt to disengage at 1 hull if they would otherwise be killed by a single shot bringing them from above the disengage threshold to 0 seems reasonable to me. That's just making up for the economic advantage big ships with high damage weapons have a bit, really, since ship repairs are free.
 
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Xaelyn

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since ship repairs are free.

That seems like the crux of the issue really. Screens just don't make sense as a concept when your capital ships have regenerative shields and the ability to repair quickly and freely. Make repair cost scale with damage and you might prefer to have a bunch of screens shot down instead of spending huge amounts of alloys and several years in space-dock to repair your mono-battleship fleet. This of course has severe implications for the shield/armor/hull balance though, since shields would probably still repair for free, but it's hardly impossible to balance.
 
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Demoulius

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Ive noticed both sides of the argument. Stuff not dying and smaller ships dying by the droves; in the same game.

It seems that what effects it is wht kind of weapon youre beeing hit with. And things like fallen empires and endgame crisses obviously have massive damage boosts so you see it against them alot more to.

What baffles me though is how little you notice the 90% evasion. I regulary see enemies with 100% hit chances while I know that 1: those weapons dont have 100% hit chances and 2: I know those weapons dont have 90% tracking.

Now obviously the AI cheats. But it cheats so much that smaller ships have just about 0% survivability in the endgame. THe most ive seen my ships 'keep' in terms of evasion is 30%. Maybe 40% in some rare cases. And I would very much like to know how the AI got thoses tracking bonuses, lol.
 

forfor

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Ive noticed both sides of the argument. Stuff not dying and smaller ships dying by the droves; in the same game.

It seems that what effects it is wht kind of weapon youre beeing hit with. And things like fallen empires and endgame crisses obviously have massive damage boosts so you see it against them alot more to.

What baffles me though is how little you notice the 90% evasion. I regulary see enemies with 100% hit chances while I know that 1: those weapons dont have 100% hit chances and 2: I know those weapons dont have 90% tracking.

Now obviously the AI cheats. But it cheats so much that smaller ships have just about 0% survivability in the endgame. THe most ive seen my ships 'keep' in terms of evasion is 30%. Maybe 40% in some rare cases. And I would very much like to know how the AI got thoses tracking bonuses, lol.
agreed. Evasion as a mechanic is basically useless at all stages of the game. Early game everyone is using small weapons that neutralize evasion anyway. Late game, the ai is using more large weapons that are meant to be countered by evasion, but aside from the fact they mostly fill out their designs with autocannons that tend to shred corvettes anyway, they have a ton of bonuses to tracking, and evasion caps out at a number that leaves them fairly vulnerable late game. I think paradox essentially overnerfed corvettes via tracking to prevent the corvette swarm meta from coming back, but didn't leave any room for the important role corvettes are supposed to play as frontline screen ships. Also, good fucking luck using frigates outside of multiplayer, because right now they only have a niche role of countering battleship artillery mono-fleets, and they get absolutely annihilated when used in any other capacity, meaning they're worthless against the ai who always uses balanced fleets compositions.
 
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Demoulius

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Afree that the smaller ships are next to useless against the AI. WIll say that they do serve the purpose of stalling your more important ships (cruisers and up in my book) from beeing hit by damage by getting in the way. It would be better if ships actually got to use that evasion but I understand why the AI gets the bonuses that it goes. We are very far off from making actuall AI that can give a human player a good fight without the bonuses.

That said, I will say that torpedoes are absolutely devastating. Even if your ships wont live long enough to survive the battle, the damage they do in the time that theyre alive is pretty insane.

I often get the relic that allows you to summon fallen empire fleets and the torpedoes are often at the top of the damage list. Cruisers with 3 of them are something that I still want to try but im just not sure what kind of backup weapon to give them?
 

forfor

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Afree that the smaller ships are next to useless against the AI. WIll say that they do serve the purpose of stalling your more important ships (cruisers and up in my book) from beeing hit by damage by getting in the way. It would be better if ships actually got to use that evasion but I understand why the AI gets the bonuses that it goes. We are very far off from making actuall AI that can give a human player a good fight without the bonuses.

That said, I will say that torpedoes are absolutely devastating. Even if your ships wont live long enough to survive the battle, the damage they do in the time that theyre alive is pretty insane.

I often get the relic that allows you to summon fallen empire fleets and the torpedoes are often at the top of the damage list. Cruisers with 3 of them are something that I still want to try but im just not sure what kind of backup weapon to give them?
I usually give torpedo cruisers energy torpedoes (cant remember the name. They're the ones that come from physics research) with plasma launchers as the backup. Partly this is because I always seem to end up with way more repeatable weapon techs on physics research. The other part is that energy torpedoes have reduced damage against armor, so it makes sense to me that the backup should have a bonus against armor. Plus, the plasma launchers have that nice bonus against hull too, so it's a double win.
 
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Dragatus

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Energy torpedoes have -50% vs shield, not vs armor. Against armor they get a +50% bonus. Mixing them with plasma creates ships that get hard-countered by shields, but melt armor. That said, if you have other ships to deal with shields (say battleships with gigacannon + kinetic artillery + afterburners) they can work very well.

However, energy torpedoes are bad vs the small ships the AI likes. Their base damage is too low. Against cruisers they are average and against battleships they are great, but you don't want to use them against destroyers let alone corvettes and frigates. Regular torpedoes on the other hand will already do good damage already vs corvettes, great damage vs destroyers, awesome damage vs cruisers and insane damage vs anything bigger. Their flip-side is low range and that PD can shoot them down, but AI will rarely have enough PD to do so and short range isn't as much of an issue if the ship carrying the torpedoes is tough, like say a cruiser. But if the torpedo ship is fragile, like say a frigate, then the short range will be an issue.

That's why I equip my cruisers with regular torpedoes (and disruptors to finish the job if needed), while my frigates get to carry energy torpedoes and regular missiles, to keep them away from the frontline.

But to get back to the original topic, I think small ships being fragile is pretty much working as intended. What isn't working as intended is the AI ship designer. This is because some time ago someone at PDX came up with the idea that the AI should use how much power a weapon uses as a proxy for how good the weapon is. And I think that was actually a pretty clever idea, it's just that the combat rebalance didn't take it into account properly and now the AI thinks that plasma and autocannons (which use abnormally high amounts of power) are high tech superweapons while swarmer missiles (which use very little power) are low tech trash. It's so bad that even AI empires that are supposed to favor explosive weapons will still rather use a plasma & autocannon combo instead of using swarmers. And it's the main reason why all late game AI designs look so similar.

What that has to do with corvettes dying is that autocannons are the premier anti-evasion weapon. Throw in advanced sensors and their tracking goes all the way up to 100%. And AI absolutely loves those damn things. Just about the only empires that don't use them en masse are those that favor energy weapons (which will go crazy for plasma instead). AI also likes to use more small ships than the typical human player (or at least the typical human player who visits the forums) and those ships mostly won't have large weapon slots to put in weapons that corvettes should be good against.

Long story short, the broad combat system is fine, but AI ship design and fleet composition is largely optimized for fighting small ships. That is why you're experiencing the problem you are experiencing. In the short term your only two options in singleplayer are phasing out the use of small ships or combat behavior mods. As for what PDX could do to alleviate the issue in a future patch, the simplest and least disruptive solution is to standardize weapon power usage, so that all weapons of the same size and tech tier use the same amount of power. That would diversify AI ship designs away from the autocannon spam, which I can confirm would work because I tested it out.
 
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