Can we make it so that forming HRE is the ultimate goal, not the ultimate nerf?

[Orkonkel]

So! This is basically the issue I have playing the HRE:

Forming the Holy Roman Empire is the ultimate anticlimactic challenge. Going through the reforms is a rewarding and engaging experience, and then around 1535 I enacted the vassal swarm, and the game just became boring. There was nothing that could ever stop me, and if I wanted to, I could just feed every conquered province to a vassal. After 40-50 years I just said 'fuck it' and ate them all and formed the HRE.

The way the Holy Roman Empire is represented is neither realistic or fun gameplay, but instead just makes me incredibly frustrated with the design of the last two reforms. In fact, the absolutely worst part of the reforms is the last one: it makes you from an unstoppable juggernaut to.. well.. a standard, plain, vanilla, stoppable juggernaut. Hitting that final button should be the most rewarding experience of HRE gameplay, not an afterthought you press once the world is teeming inside your princely vassals. I have more thoughts on how to change/improve this, but my brain is a bit tired at the moment. I'll probably post them later. Or, I'll just start a Bohemia game and do this all over again.

 

[st360]

This could easily be balanced if the reform making everyone vassals reduced their force limit by 90%, giving you a bit more armies from your new vassals but nothing overwhelming.

 

[vikinglord]

Only if population were added to the game can this be balanced in any way. Up until the middle of the 19th century all of the German lands used to have less population than France. Yet, a united HRE in EUIV has more development than France.

In addition to that, the individual tags have their own mana generation and pools which means (with mana being an abstraction of population and level of societal development) that it is only a natural outcome that a disunited HRE is stronger than a united one.

I cannot see how this can be fixed without population and the removal of mana.

 

[Gyrvendal]

Easy, just remove the vassal swarm... Just make it so they only join defensive wars and not offensive ones.

 

[Mindel]

The big game-breaking problem with HRE reforms is the vassal swarm.

The reasoning behind it seems to be: if you have the diligence to push through all of the reforms to get there, then you deserve something game-breaking as a reward.

I really don't like this reasoning. I think it's always a bad idea to insert something so overwhelmingly powerful into the game, even if you have to torture yourself for 2 centuries to get there.

 

[grotaclas]

Forming the HRE was buffed in 1.32. The modifier Rome Reborn changed from giving

• +1 yearly prestige,
• +5% national tax modifier.

To:

• +3 Yearly prestige
• −5% Technology cost
• +10% Institution spread
• +5% National tax modifier
• +10% Spy network construction
• +1 Possible advisor
• +1 Leader without upkeep
• +1 Diplomat
• +3 Diplomatic reputation
• +1 Diplomatic relation
• +50 Land force limit
• +50 Manpower increase
• +50 Tax income
• −5% Construction cost
• −5% Construction time
• −2 National unrest
• −25% State maintenance
• −10% Core-creation cost
• −10% Stability cost modifier
• +0.25 Yearly legitimacy
• +1 Tolerance of the true faith
• +1% Missionary strength
• −25% Mercenary cost

Of course giving some governing capacity would be a nice addition

 

[Victoria 3 finally]

Only if population were added to the game can this be balanced in any way. Up until the middle of the 19th century all of the German lands used to have less population than France. Yet, a united HRE in EUIV has more development than France.

In addition to that, the individual tags have their own mana generation and pools which means (with mana being an abstraction of population and level of societal development) that it is only a natural outcome that a disunited HRE is stronger than a united one.

I cannot see how this can be fixed without population and the removal of mana.

population≠economic output​

 

[vikinglord]

population≠economic output​

That is why I said population AND societal development. And while what we project as the economic output of lets say 17th century France vs the combined German lands can vary drastically, the point still stands, that is, France should have more population than the HRE, more "base manpower", more manpower and more GDP (although not sure about GDP per capita) than the HRE. As it currently stands, this is not the case and, moreover, these stats change arbitrarily for the HRE between its unified and decentralised state.

 

[Xetfield]

They already changed it to the point where you still have all bonuses from the reforms after unification. You just need to choose time where you want to unify HRE, build courthouses in every province and/or take admin ideas with admin hegemony

 

[holyvigil]

This is like saying

"can we make uniting India the ultimate goal, not the ultimate nerf?

Once you've united india as the Mughals the game just becomes easy. I have become this unstoppable juggernaut and the game just becomes boring.

I then decided to click a button to make the game challenging again but it just seems like it makes the game challenging again and I don't like that.

I know how to fix this but I'm not going to tell anyone because giving out firm suggestions after talking about my complaints is tiring."

 

[Blust]

They really should focus on making decentralized HRE more than a meme first.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

They really should focus on making decentralized HRE more than a meme first.

Could give it the vassal swarm, which you'd then need to annex one by one somehow if you wanted to get rid of the swarm. Centralizing still giving greyskin of course.

 

[annulen]

Could give it the vassal swarm, which you'd then need to annex one by one somehow if you wanted to get rid of the swarm

"Vassal swarm" is centralization, how can you add it to decentralization branch? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

"Vassal swarm" is centralization, how can you add it to decentralization branch? It doesn't make any sense.

Decentralization has a (limited) usage of compelled wars right now, not very different in concept from a vassal swarm. Especially if you still get the "annexed member of HRE" demerit if you choose to annex revoked vassals, so actually centralizing/getting direct control of land after going decentralization would still be quite difficult.