Can we get rid of pops auto-promoting?

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Riftwalker

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Why have promoting & demoting at all?
What are the benefits it brings?
How do these benefits outweigh the inconvenience & micromanagement it creates?

it's mostly to facilitate the uncontrolable masses

I think it just needs tuning though, and not removal.

if you don't want pop promotion, I think slavery comes close... but It'd be cool if there was a living standard that maybe added a promotion timer, maybe a new caste system, which would be a bit better than stratified, but have pops stay in their strata for longer. the downside, is you might end up with unemployable noblemen. :p maybe unemployed rules would get a special "administrative job", like normal employment producing unity or possibly research. maybe if we're feeling a bit diverse it could give naval cap.
 

Iry

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Promotion Policy:

Liberal - Current system. Anyone can promote.
Balanced - Fills the building, but takes workers from whatever monthly resource is highest.
Limited - Only unemployed fill building slots.
 

wundergoat

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Disabling auto-promote is good, I like that idea, but I don't get the "new pops promote as normal" part, particularly how it meshes together with disabling auto-promote at the same time. Can you explain further on this?
The main thing that can jar your developing planetary economy is adding specialist jobs en mass. You get hit for the specialist's production inputs plus the resource output lost when your workers promoted.

For example, adding a little alloy production to a mining world can do the following: Alloy foundry comes online, adding 2 specialist jobs. 2 miners immediately take those jobs. Your economy immediately loses a net of ~20-24 mineral production as a result. 12 from the two metallurgists and then 4-6 for each miner, depending on early game bonuses.

By making new pops automatically fill the highest strata jobs, you slowly ramp up the resource demands of the specialist industry you are developing without losing any of the existing worker production. This means you have a smooth change to your economy with only 1 UI interaction, rather than having to enable jobs as you want them.

I think this will only work when you can set the priority of jobs before the actual building providing that job gets built. That will clutter the already small, cluttered UI.
There is a lot of usable space in the job tap, right next to the existing controls. You can convey priority with a number and relative position of the jobs.



As I said above, most problems can be solved by making more intelligent macro level decisions. Introducing more micro so that you don't have to put more thought into your worker/specialist balance and job/pop balance isn't the answer.
Macro level management is the best way to manage this issue now, but requires quite a bit of checking on colonies, which is time the player could be doing something else. If I know what my colony should look like and have the resources to pour into it now, why can't I queue up development and not have to worry about the colony's economy turning into a trainwreck because I added all the spec jobs in this queue rather than coming back and adding 2 more jobs every 5 years.

I think this is too simplistic. I'd want a priority system to be a bit more nuanced, like sliders for each stratum, indicating the relative weight between jobs in the stratum. For example, I may decide I want to keep 2x as many pops in miner and farmer jobs than the number in clerks. So the assignment system attempts to keep the percentage of miners/farmers double the percentage of clerk jobs filled. Pretty similar to wundergoat's idea, just with different UI.

I think that would work great, and actually preserves some of that feeling of pops not being directly controlled by the player. Idea: next to the existing +/-, put the up/down arrows and a number. All jobs start at number 3, and you can increase or decrease that number from 1 to 5, affecting job weight. You can still fully disable jobs with the +/-, but you can also affect job balance.



It doesn't create any micromanagement if you wait until you have unemployed pops before you build a new building.
Checking back on planets is still micro, even if that is cycling through sectors in the outliner to see if there are unemployed pops.



Promotion Policy:

Liberal - Current system. Anyone can promote.
Balanced - Fills the building, but takes workers from whatever monthly resource is highest.
Limited - Only unemployed fill building slots.

I feel like this issue is about how to better control how jobs get allocated, which can be handled now through funky controls and lots of micromanagement. Therefore it is a UI issue and access to better UI should not be influenced by game decisions.
 

TehJumpingJawa

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It doesn't create any micromanagement if you wait until you have unemployed pops before you build a new building.

Which is micromanagement!

The promotion/demotion system is incredibly simplistic, to the point where I think it adds nothing to the player's strategic decision making process.

It's added complexity for no appreciable gain in mechanical depth.

Take Vicky 2 as a counter point; managing pop promotions/demotions was far more indirect, and as such demanded far less micro.
Yet it created long term strategic decisions for the player to make.

That's not to say Vicky 2 was perfect; the system was rather obtuse & esoteric, yet once learnt, became rather formulaic.
However that's infinitely preferable to complexity that demands you fight the UI.
 
Last edited:

Eled the Worm Tamer

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It might be micromanagement, but lets not pretend that managing (un)employment rates as the demands of economies change isn't a big part of what governments struggle to do when they only have part of a single world to manage.

If anything it needs to be harder to fill specalist jobs though. That would make them, well, special, and help simulate situations like "Brain drain" and things. Imbalances in the produuction of qualified people vs the desirability of the posting, which would open up a lot of options in imagration policy.
 

Alblaka

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this isn't correct, soldier jobs are worker level but higher priority than specialist. also priest jobs appear to be lower priority than worker jobs even though they're specialist. each job seems to have a present priority for being filled... (at least they were for my last organic empire)

I'm actually assuming that's related to the number of job slots. It might try to fill up the jobs to an equal relative amount, or go by absolute amount. Since soldier jobs are usually very minor in number (1 default from capital? 2 per building, compared to several dozen resource workers?), they get filled up first.
This would ~fit with my observations of how jobs fill up when you got a seperated-caste-society (primary race + slave race), because that creates a circumstance where you might actually have a lack of specialists: here, too, the lower-count jobs tend to fill first.

Doubt that's anything even modders can answer though, since the behavior is probably in the actual code. Might have to run some experiments.
 

Chieron

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This behavior is also a bit annoying with Entertainers. You will need only just enough entertainers to fulfill the amenities needs, as those do not transfer to other planets. For many planets, that will be one pop. But you get two jobs and of course will get an additional specialist happily transforming consumer goods into nothing of value (actually, inefficient unity).
Some jobs really do not need to be filled after a certain level, but the increments of additional jobs force you to add more than needed.
 

Zergor

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While I imagine it's logical that people want higher jobs farmers can't and shouldn't immediately become rulers.

I like the transition but would prefer a smoother one where each year a fraction of the population has a chance to gain a higher status if jobs are available. That would both reflect the reality of the fact that people don't instantly aquire a top level education the moment a position is needed and would help GP wise to not have instantly half your production lost.

The change would still happen but if it's slower you would be able to see that you don't produce enough anymore and close buildings (a very underused solution that solve the problem granted you do it before all your workers are promoted) if necessary to prevent promotions.

If people require some time to level down they should also require time to level up.
 

Slynx

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If you don't want to fill it now, then why do you invest the resources for the upgrade?
the problem is that they autopromote immediately. leaving you no chance to close the slots or resettle the pop suitable for this job(like an unemployed ruler from a neighboring planet)
 

Alblaka

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the problem is that they autopromote immediately. leaving you no chance to close the slots or resettle the pop suitable for this job(like an unemployed ruler from a neighboring planet)

If the other pop is unemployed, move him beforehand (or at least before the construction finishes)?
 

Danny Pockets

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a elegant solution would be to make a button to click where you could choose them to not auto-promote.

This! This is all that's needed, an option you can enable so that when construction completes, all the new slots are locked and you have to open them manually, so that you can promote pops one by one.

Frankly, it seems like an oversight that this wasn't included.
 

EvilKnievel82

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I'm actually assuming that's related to the number of job slots. It might try to fill up the jobs to an equal relative amount, or go by absolute amount. Since soldier jobs are usually very minor in number (1 default from capital? 2 per building, compared to several dozen resource workers?), they get filled up first.
This would ~fit with my observations of how jobs fill up when you got a seperated-caste-society (primary race + slave race), because that creates a circumstance where you might actually have a lack of specialists: here, too, the lower-count jobs tend to fill first.
I have a syncretic species game, where the servile species is much better suited for military that the main species. Whenever a main species pop is created on any given planet it just straight up displaces a servile soldier (even if it becomes unemployed) even if there are multiple free specialist jobs. That makes zero sense. There is some arbitrarily high weighting factor for soldiers and for some other species or rights factor involed here. I am guessing citizens are rated much higher for being soldiers which is very weird considering they just introduced the battle thrall concept.