Can we all agree that the Prosperity Tree is a booby trap for Gestalts?

[Iosue Yu]

Normal Empires get a Merchant job every 50 Pops, and it at least adds 8 Trade Values, and therefore minimum 4 Energy.

But for Hives and Machines, we get a Coordinator or a Synapse Drone every 20 Pops. These jobs produce Society and Unity, and each has an upkeep of 3 Energy. So instead of making more Energy, we just suddenly earn much less by completing the tree.

You'd think the Prosperity Tree is something you want to do when you want a more stable Economy, not because you want to add +3 Unity and +3 Society each planet.

 

[208]

I don't agree with your characterization of this as a "trap".

This measly maintenance "increase" - it doesn't give you extra pops, just extra jobs, and that worker is likely going to be doing something that costs energy regardless - is easily covered by the combination of +10% mining station output and +5% energy credits empire-wide, and you can always shut down the extra job if you don't want it.

But I do think that the bonus doesn't particularly fit the Prosperity tree and might be better in the Synchronicity tree, perhaps swapped with the Leader upkeep reduction (although that's a pretty lackluster finisher).

 

[Dan_Daniel2000]

Only the Coordinator Costs 3 Energy, Synapse drones cost 2 EC and 2 Food.

I agree its a trap for MEs, they are Energy starved already, Opening potentially dozens of Jobs that each cost 3 energty and potentially steal tech drones is really bad.

But hive minds already swim in Basic ressources, I often didnt even notice the drop in production, even when finishing prosperity really late in a game.

So its not really a Problem for HM in my opinion, but a huge one for ME.

 

[Iosue Yu]

I don't agree with your characterization of this as a "trap".

This measly maintenance "increase" - it doesn't give you extra pops, just extra jobs, and that worker is likely going to be doing something that costs energy regardless - is easily covered by the combination of +10% mining station output and +5% energy credits empire-wide, and you can always shut down the extra job if you don't want it.

But I do think that the bonus doesn't particularly fit the Prosperity tree and might be better in the Synchronicity tree, perhaps swapped with the Leader upkeep reduction (although that's a pretty lackluster finisher).

The other perks within the tree are fine. But finishing it means a sudden surge of Energy from probably around +20 down to -15, because you'll get 1 every 20 Pops, and you may just get, say, 5 new Coordinators who have simply given up their old position probably as a Tech-Drone, into a position you suddenly need 3 Energy, in extra to the 4 they stopped giving.

We, as humans, may be able to try to fiddle a bit to not have this as a small energy crisis. But the AI are hopeless.

Besides, the Tree is Prosperity, we take that tree to want to earn more Energy, not less.

Only the Coordinator Costs 3 Energy, Synapse drones cost 2 EC and 2 Food.

I agree its a trap for MEs, they are Energy starved already, Opening potentially dozens of Jobs that each cost 3 energty and potentially steal tech drones is really bad.

But hive minds already swim in Basic ressources, I often didnt even notice the drop in production, even when finishing prosperity really late in a game.

So its not really a Problem for HM in my opinion, but a huge one for ME.

A simple notion that it gives an impression it can improve your production but actually reduces it is already a valid concern, even if Hive Mind is taking less of a hit out of it.

 

[Secret Master]

You don't have to use those jobs, you know.

As I learned the hard way, you need to ration out those higher strata jobs carefully for Hive Minds and MEs. You need those higher strata jobs, but you have to micro them so you don't tank the economy. But you do want them eventually.

 

[Dan_Daniel2000]

A simple notion that it gives an impression it can improve your production but actually reduces it is already a valid concern, even if Hive Mind is taking less of a hit out of it.

These Jobs still give Unity and Society Research, the second of which is very useful to HM because of genemodding, and the first because HM only has 3 Levels of the Unity Building, instead of 4 for every other empire(Im still not sure if this might be a bug though).

I guess the real Problem is that Gestalt consciousnesses dont have any complex drone Job that doesnt require extra ressources, so the Tradition just gives Synapse drones/Coordinators.


Writing this, I just noticed how normal Empires have Administrators, giving Unity and amenities, and culture worker(or equivalent thereof), giving Unity and soc. Research, but requiring consumer goods.

Gestalt Empires have Synapse drones/Coordinators, giving soc. Research and untiy, and costing EC and Food/EC. They have a weird combination of two normal empire Jobs as there Unity Producers.
Maybe gestalts should get a Job similar to Administrators, not requiring anything, producing Unity and amenities, but only being provided in limited amounts by capital and the prosperity finisher, giving another one per 50 Pops. This would also decrease their insane Need of maintenance Depots for large planets.

I havent thought that much about if this is balanced, but I would like to hear what you think About this.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

Don't worry about it, as of 2.2.4 entertainer/maintenance jobs are never filled ever anyway :/

The 10% decrease in building/district/ship upkeep is a major boon to economy early through mid game. It is comparable to the 20% decrease to shipyard upkeep in Supremacy if you are playing wide, which you can expect to do as a gestalt.

 

[Iosue Yu]

These Jobs still give Unity and Society Research, the second of which is very useful to HM because of genemodding, and the first because HM only has 3 Levels of the Unity Building, instead of 4 for every other empire(Im still not sure if this might be a bug though).

I guess the real Problem is that Gestalt consciousnesses dont have any complex drone Job that doesnt require extra ressources, so the Tradition just gives Synapse drones/Coordinators.


Writing this, I just noticed how normal Empires have Administrators, giving Unity and amenities, and culture worker(or equivalent thereof), giving Unity and soc. Research, but requiring consumer goods.

Gestalt Empires have Synapse drones/Coordinators, giving soc. Research and untiy, and costing EC and Food/EC. They have a weird combination of two normal empire Jobs as there Unity Producers.
Maybe gestalts should get a Job similar to Administrators, not requiring anything, producing Unity and amenities, but only being provided in limited amounts by capital and the prosperity finisher, giving another one per 50 Pops. This would also decrease their insane Need of maintenance Depots for large planets.

I havent thought that much about if this is balanced, but I would like to hear what you think About this.

Perhaps. But even then, the reward is ill-suited. First, it has no resemblance to "Prosperity". Second, it seems like the reward has been written so out of the blue that the devs had no regards of potential economical impacts when you complete the Tree.

Merchant jobs will earn you more Energy. But Coordinators and Synapse Drones will drain you. It is already a wrong parallel.

Besides, we humans can turn off some jobs or buildings. Think about the CPU. They will just take the hit and move on. This is no healthy reward at all.

 

[Iosue Yu]

You don't have to use those jobs, you know.

As I learned the hard way, you need to ration out those higher strata jobs carefully for Hive Minds and MEs. You need those higher strata jobs, but you have to micro them so you don't tank the economy. But you do want them eventually.

If I have to micromanage everything, it means the CPU can't play the game.

For a system to work, it should be that it requires no special human input and it works alone.