Can someone explain to me what the soviet union is doing?

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pheonicia

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so in my australia game, I noticed that the soviets were losing miserably to the axis, so I decided to check out their manpower and was shocked to see that they had 0. At this point in my game both germany and japan have gone to scraping the barrel and total mobilization, so I'm confused as to why the soviets haven't increased thier manpower laws. I will provide the save below.
 

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a_sophist

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In short, the political power allocation of the AI is wonky, and I doubt it's capable of doing much, if any, forward planning, i.e. "if I'm about to press go on a battle plan with my entire army, I'm probably going to have a few million casualties, so let's save PP to change the conscription law." If you haven't already, just fast forward 150 days and see if it changes.
 

CharlesV

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probably just AI doing AI things. It will only (as far as I know) enact the next manpower law when the actual number hits zero. Perhaps it doesn't have the PP to spend right away.
 

CplKatie

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Its because the soviet manpower pool is gigantic. They sit on volunteer because the AI checks manpower amount not percent. Its efficient but doesn't take into account that when it swaps to total mobilisation it should have 300 stored PP instead of the 150 every other nation needs since IT is on volunteer while everyone else is on extensive.
 

CrazyZombie

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I'd say, problem is that AI is unable to evaluate own need in divisions and such. I'm already tired of doomstacks of 300-600 divisions, which simply smash themselves into prepared defenses, while population at home feels completely OK with harsher conscription laws. IRL every normal state (especially if it is the aggressor) would have signed white peace a couple of millions before.
 

CrazyZombie

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From what I can tell the Soviets had military service in the 1930s. One law was passed in 1925 and one in august 1939. I think those make sense as Limited Conscription and Extensive Conscription respectively. Might solve the above problem.
Well, in SU it worked as "territorial divisions" (sort of militia, details in the link of my signature on one of last pages) in 1925 and fully regulars in 1939.
Still, army in SU consisted of two parts. Regulars and conscripts. Conscripts are mobilized in the age of 18-19, for a term of 2-3 years. They get starting military education and training and then - demobilized. They are the military reserve for a war.
Regulars are military "professionals", who chose this path as volunteers and act as first echelon in case of war. In 1941 USSR lost regular army, exchanging it for time to mobilize reservists.
 

swm

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Its because the soviet manpower pool is gigantic. They sit on volunteer because the AI checks manpower amount not percent. Its efficient but doesn't take into account that when it swaps to total mobilisation it should have 300 stored PP instead of the 150 every other nation needs since IT is on volunteer while everyone else is on extensive.

You're close, but this is not quite true. See below for the relevant section of the HOI4_INSTALL_FOLDER/common/ideas/_manpower.txt file.

Code:
ideas = {
    mobilization_laws = { 
        disarmed_nation = {
        }
       
        volunteer_only = {
            ai_will_do = {
                  factor = 1

                  modifier = {
                    factor = 60 # being disarmed is bad in a wargame yo
                    has_idea = disarmed_nation 
                }
            }
        }
       
        limited_conscription = {
            ai_will_do = {
                  factor = 1
                modifier = {
                    #Prio if low on manpower
                    factor = 20
                    manpower_per_military_factory <  1000
                }
            }
        }
       
        extensive_conscription = {
            ai_will_do = {
                  factor = 1
                modifier = {
                    #Prio if low on manpower
                    factor = 20
                    manpower_per_military_factory <  800
                }

                modifier = { # china relies a lot on throwing bodies at the enemy
                    factor = 3

                    tag = CHI
                    has_manpower < 200000
                }
            }
        }
       
        service_by_requirement = {
            ai_will_do = {
                  factor = 1
                modifier = {
                    #Prio if low on manpower
                    factor = 20
                    manpower_per_military_factory <  700
                }
                modifier = {
                    #Lower chance if has decent amount
                    factor = 0.5
                    manpower_per_military_factory >  1000
                }
                modifier = {
                    #Block has plenty manpower
                    factor = 0
                    NOT = { tag = CHI }
                    manpower_per_military_factory >  3000
                }

                modifier = { # china relies a lot on throwing bodies at the enemy
                    factor = 3

                    tag = CHI
                    has_manpower < 200000
                }
            }
        }
       
        all_adults_serve = {
            ai_will_do = {
                  factor = 1
                modifier = {
                    #Prio if low on manpower
                    factor = 20
                    manpower_per_military_factory <  600
                }
                modifier = {
                    #Lower chance if has decent amount
                    factor = 0.5
                    manpower_per_military_factory >  1000
                }
                modifier = {
                    #Block has plenty manpower
                    factor = 0
                    NOT = { tag = CHI }
                    manpower_per_military_factory >  5000
                }

                modifier = { # china relies a lot on throwing bodies at the enemy
                    factor = 3

                    tag = CHI
                    has_manpower < 200000
                }
            }
        }
       
        scraping_the_barrel = {
            ai_will_do = {
                  factor = 1
                modifier = {
                    #Prio if low on manpower
                    factor = 20
                    manpower_per_military_factory <  500
                }               
                modifier = {
                    #Lower chance if has decent amount
                    factor = 0.5
                    manpower_per_military_factory >  1000
                }
                modifier = {
                    #Block has plenty manpower
                    factor = 0
                    manpower_per_military_factory >  5000
                }
            }
       }

As you can see, the priority is primarily placed on manpower_per_military_factory, with a few special cases for China. Notably, nothing in this code considers how manpower intensive vs industry intensive the AI's divisions actually are (except that Chinas are hardcoded to be considered highly manpower intensive). Further note - the amount of manpower in the field is not considered in this code (though it might be in AI recruitment logic, which is somewhere else entirely)! Notably, there are opposite checks in economic laws (so the ai will either want to do one or the other at any given time).
 

CplKatie

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You're close, but this is not quite true. See below for the relevant section of the HOI4_INSTALL_FOLDER/common/ideas/_manpower.txt file.



As you can see, the priority is primarily placed on manpower_per_military_factory, with a few special cases for China. Notably, nothing in this code considers how manpower intensive vs industry intensive the AI's divisions actually are (except that Chinas are hardcoded to be considered highly manpower intensive). Further note - the amount of manpower in the field is not considered in this code (though it might be in AI recruitment logic, which is somewhere else entirely)! Notably, there are opposite checks in economic laws (so the ai will either want to do one or the other at any given time).

The mistake you make is the assumption that its in the games ai logics best interest to go from volunteer to limited at start of the game when both yield millions of spare manpower. The Soviet Ai is not pushing limited early like all other countries because It hasn't met the low manpower threshold. Then it pops total mobilisation and it loses millions. Like I said, this is exactly what happens to us in every soviet game. Unless you store up 450 PP during the NAP with germany, when war starts, you have to pay for 2 conscriptions and a total mobilisation law just to be war ready.
 

swm

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The mistake you make is the assumption that its in the games ai logics best interest to go from volunteer to limited at start of the game when both yield millions of spare manpower. The Soviet Ai is not pushing limited early like all other countries because It hasn't met the low manpower threshold. Then it pops total mobilisation and it loses millions. Like I said, this is exactly what happens to us in every soviet game. Unless you store up 450 PP during the NAP with germany, when war starts, you have to pay for 2 conscriptions and a total mobilisation law just to be war ready.

It's sort of beside the point, I just wanted to point out that the AI is a tiny bit smarter than just "if manpower < somemagicnumber then conscriptmore." It does actually consider how big its industry is versus its manpower. But you are correct, the AI's not making the best decisions here because it's not considering the future, and it's not considering how manpower/industry intensive its units actually are.

That said, I'm not sure Extensive Conscription would help the Soviet AI. My experience has been that the Soviets run totally out of guns well before they run out of men. The way STR damage is calculated you're always going to damage both at once. Once the Soviets run out of guns, it doesn't matter how many men they throw into their divisions.
 

pheonicia

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To be a bit clearer, the last time I had checked the soviet stats in like 1942 or something, they had over 400 divisions and manpower in their pool. The save provided is from 1944, they have 0 manpower, and only like 230ish divisions. So something is wrong here, and I'd just like to know if this is like a known issue that is going to be fixed or what.
 

swm

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@pheonicia Can you resave your game as a text file? I can't seem to open the binary, and HOI4 won't let me load it in game without TFV.

But the short answer is the Soviet army sitting on bingo manpower isn't too uncommon. They take a ton of casualties and fast.
 

pheonicia

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@pheonicia Can you resave your game as a text file? I can't seem to open the binary, and HOI4 won't let me load it in game without TFV.

But the short answer is the Soviet army sitting on bingo manpower isn't too uncommon. They take a ton of casualties and fast.
how do I do that?
 

pheonicia

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Okay, I made a copy, loaded it, let it run for a bit then exited again I will attach it here.
 

Attachments

  • Ironman Australia 1 - Copy.hoi4
    27,1 MB · Views: 6