Can someone explain to me the difference between Air Support Mission Efficiency and Ground Support ?

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Foehammer

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Also the Air Superiority Mission Efficiency and Escort Efficiency are confusing.
Tooltips aren't clear and i didn't find anything in the wiki.
 

Alex_brunius

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Air Superiority Mission Efficiency basically helps your fighters shoot down enemy planes when on the Air Superiority mission.

Escort Efficiency is a bit more unclear, but I think it's supposed to help more of your bombers damage get through ( reduce disruptions from enemy air ) when you have fighters in the same airzone.
 

Cavalry

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Air support means the Close air support mission, the button to do when you choose an air fleet.
100% efficiency means all of your air fleet can engage combat in range. Your close air support fleet should be in the middle of an air region to increase efficiency, but be sure in the range of the combat you want to assist.
Ground Support means the combat bonus your troops have if you get some air support.
 

billcorr

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Also the Air Superiority Mission Efficiency and Escort Efficiency are confusing.
Tooltips aren't clear and i didn't find anything in the wiki.

This is an important thread.

It provides examples of terms or phrases that are ambiguous.

The endstate is that HoI4 transmits information clearly to Paradox customers.
 

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Your close air support fleet should be in the middle of an air region to increase efficiency, but be sure in the range of the combat you want to assist.

This is false, not the first half of your sentence but the second one. Play as france and station your 1936 cas in the brest airfield, they'll still be able to help out in combat on the maginot line (albeit at a lower efficiency) even though the range circle doesn't cover the maginot line.
 

billcorr

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Thank you for providing the link.

(here is the verbiage at the other end of the link rainbow)


Definitions and terminology[edit]
  • Ground Support: Ground support is the use of aircraft to assist troops in land combat. This is accomplished by putting Close Air Support (CAS) planes on Close Air Support missions to strafe and bomb enemy troops resulting in enemy manpower loss, enemy equipment loss, and chaos (reduction in enemy unit organization). Reference Air warfare#Close Air Support
  • Air Superiority: Air superiority is the degree of dominance of your air force over an opponent's air force in a strategic region. Reference Air warfare#Air superiority
  • Fighter Detection: Fighter detection is the chance of finding enemy planes while on an air superiority mission. Reference Air warfare#Detection, Disruption, Damage
  • Interception Detection: Interception detection is the chance of finding enemy planes while on an interception detection mission. Reference Air warfare#Detection, Disruption, Damage
  • Air Support Mission Efficiency: Air support mission efficiency is the percentage of an air wing's planes that can actually carry out the assigned air support mission. Reference Air warfare#Missions
  • Air Superiority Mission Efficiency: Air superiority mission efficiency is the percentage of an air wing's planes that can actually carry out the assigned air superiority mission. Reference Air warfare#Missions
  • Interception Mission Efficiency: Interception mission efficiency is the percentage of an air wing's planes that can actually carry out the assigned interception mission. Reference Air warfare#Missions
  • Naval Mission Efficiency: Naval mission efficiency is the percentage of an air wing's planes that can actually carry out the assigned naval mission. Reference Air warfare#Missions
  • Escort Efficiency: Escort efficiency is the percentage of an air wing's planes that can actually carry out the assigned escort mission. Reference Air warfare#Missions
  • Strategic Bombing: Strategic bombing is the act of damaging enemy buildings, industry, and infrastructure via planes designed to drop bombs. Reference Air warfare#Strategic Bombing
  • Strategic Bombing Visibility: Strategic bombing visibility is the chance of being detected by the enemy when on a strategic bombing mission. Reference Air warfare#Detection, Disruption, Damage
  • Night Time Strategic Bombing Penalty: Night time strategic bombing penalty is the malus when strategically bombing targets at night.
  • Bomber Defense: Bomber Defense is how many hits, represented by hit points (HP), that a bomber can take before being shot down. Reference Air units#Heavy Air Frame
  • Agility: Agility is a plane's maneuverability. Agility affects both the ability to hit an enemy plane and to avoid being shot by an enemy plane. When two planes meet in combat, the more agile plane will be able to use a greater percentage of its air attack value. If your plane is hit by an opponent that has lower agility, then the damage to your plane can be reduced by -45%. Reference Defines#NAir COMBAT_BETTER_AGILITY_DAMAGE_REDUCTION = 0.45
 

bitmode

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I'm pretty sure the various mission efficiencies increase the combat stats while on this mission. Escort efficiency does nothing if I recall correctly because that doesn't exist as a separate mission.
There was a thread a few months ago where we went through all these modifiers and updated the air warfare article accordingly
 

bitmode

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Also the Air Superiority Mission Efficiency and Escort Efficiency are confusing.
Tooltips aren't clear and i didn't find anything in the wiki.
To answer the original questions:
The ground support modifier increases the stat buff divisions in combat get from friendly air support.
For all missions except naval strike, the "<mission> Mission Efficiency" modifiers don't do anything but raise the plane's air attack, defense and agility during air combat. So while their name suggests they are similar, they do very different things.

The functionality to distinguish escort and superiority fighters must have been removed at some point. The escort modifier never gets used when I run a test game nor do I see a code path that could potentially trigger it. As such the relevant doctrine does effectively nothing.
 

Cavalry

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I'm pretty sure the various mission efficiencies increase the combat stats while on this mission.

I think that is for naval missions but for air the wiki say it increase % of plane join battle. At least that is my observe on CAS number? (the air efficiency never go over 100%)
 
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Cavalry

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. Play as france and station your 1936 cas in the brest airfield, they'll still be able to help out in combat on the maginot line (albeit at a lower efficiency) even though the range circle doesn't cover the maginot line.

Well I mostly observe what didn't happen, and there is more than one reason that the CAS didn't join, so this can happen. But make sure those CAS is your own plane not the British ones. (I think ally CAS will display 0 Cas, 0 damage in battle screen)

At least from my observe the CAS will priority choose a target closer to their airbase, so you want to base the CAS near the battle if your CAS number is limited.
 

Vidkjaer

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Where do you get the info to determine that the air doctrine for mission efficiency increases planes stats?
The tooltip does not specify this and the code in the Lau file doesn’t specify this.

Mission efficiency is a boost to “range” when in a mission in an air zone for an air wing which has <100% efficiency Why are people claiming it is increasing plane stats?
 

Alex_brunius

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Where do you get the info to determine that the air doctrine for mission efficiency increases planes stats?
The tooltip does not specify this and the code in the Lau file doesn’t specify this.

You run tests and conclude through empirical means that planes with mission efficiency doctrine perform better than those without even if both sides fly at 100% efficiency before adding the doctrine.

And about those tooltips, this is what the tooltip says:
Tooltip.jpg


"Increased ability in dogfights" sounds alot more like it boosts stats than like it offsets range or bad weather.

Mission efficiency is a boost to “range” when in a mission in an air zone for an air wing which has <100% efficiency Why are people claiming it is increasing plane stats?
Maybe because increasing plane stats is the easiest explanation that fits with what was observed in tests and tooltips? I guess it could also just hook directly into the combat resolution without modifying stats to give the same result.
 
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Cavalry

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Wow, so Air Superiority mission efficiency in Air Doctrine is different from mission efficiency in Air battle screen, and differ from Air Superiority "without mission efficency"

The Doctrine Battle Integrity is best for fighter because it has +20% Air Superiority mission efficiency , +20% fighter agility, +20% figher detection!
 

Vidkjaer

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You run tests and conclude through empirical means that planes with mission efficiency doctrine perform better than those without even if both sides fly at 100% efficiency before adding the doctrine.

And about those tooltips, this is what the tooltip says:
View attachment 434815

"Increased ability in dogfights" sounds alot more like it boosts stats than like it offsets range or bad weather.


Maybe because increasing plane stats is the easiest explanation that fits with what was observed in tests and tooltips? I guess it could also just hook directly into the combat resolution without modifying stats to give the same result.

So one of the air doctrine techs improve planes stats with 10% because they are able to fly higher? I didn’t know flight hight was part of the combat simulation?

Those tool tips are just immersive descriptions. Basically they say pilots do combat tactics better and thus are 10% more efficient, meaning 10% more planes in combat.

But I would love to see the numbers on those tests and how they were performed.

I just find it hard to believe that a tech boosting an efficiency value (as described in the Lua file), is actually boosting planes stats. That would be a very bad error to make when the GUI says differently.

If test results indicate planes are performing better, maybe it is a bug so planes air superiority has an efficiency > 100%, which would grant more planes than the opponent and thus would perform better.
 

bitmode

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The Doctrine Battle Integrity is best for fighter because it has +20% Air Superiority mission efficiency , +20% fighter agility, +20% figher detection!
They are further down the tech tree than in Strategic Destruction though and you're forced to research some questionable interception techs first. If the interception mission becomes more viable with the introduction of fuel, Operational Integrity could be good.
So one of the air doctrine techs improve planes stats with 10% because they are able to fly higher? I didn’t know flight hight was part of the combat simulation?

Those tool tips are just immersive descriptions. Basically they say pilots do combat tactics better and thus are 10% more efficient, meaning 10% more planes in combat.

But I would love to see the numbers on those tests and how they were performed.

I just find it hard to believe that a tech boosting an efficiency value (as described in the Lua file), is actually boosting planes stats. That would be a very bad error to make when the GUI says differently.

If test results indicate planes are performing better, maybe it is a bug so planes air superiority has an efficiency > 100%, which would grant more planes than the opponent and thus would perform better.
I found the details by reverse engineering the game and as far as I remember they matched up pretty well with tests that had been done at the time. See this thread, though most of the results are also integrated into the air warfare wiki article.

Keep in mind that air combat was overhauled significantly on the mechanical level in patch 1.3 but the modifier descriptions hardly changed. They probably still match the pre-1.3 system.
 

Alex_brunius

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If test results indicate planes are performing better, maybe it is a bug so planes air superiority has an efficiency > 100%, which would grant more planes than the opponent and thus would perform better.

This has also been tested thoroughly, and as far as I remember efficiency above 100% does not improve performance at all. Pretty quick to test and verify by using the ability "extra ground crew" which boost it, disable weather (by mod) and run combat tests where both sides have 100% range coverage.

I mean your ofcourse free to disagree and speculate all you want about based on how you interpret tooltips and 2+ years old comments in some lua/script files... but don't expect alot of people around here to take your word for it unless you either:

A.) Reverse engineered the code as bitmode has done and can account in detail for how the forumlas governing the mechanics work.
B.) Have spent time testing the actual results in-game and can draw conclusions step by step with observed results such as Secret Master, me and few other have done previously.
C.) Are a Pdx developer which wrote the code in the first place, or have access to those that did.
 
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Vidkjaer

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T
I found the details by reverse engineering the game and as far as I remember they matched up pretty well with tests that had been done at the time. See this thread, though most of the results are also integrated into the air warfare wiki article.

Interesting thread. I agree on everything that you wrote in it. My point was that it was claimed mission efficiency increases planes stats. I said that couldnt be correct, and your post, as i understand it, supports me.

What you wrote regarding mission efficiency is that it increases the airwings stats in the combat simulation. That is correct, if the range of the airwing is to low to cover the whole air region. Then the math is that a higher mission efficiency from the doctrine will increase mission effficiency and therefore give the airwing a higher stat in the combat simulation. but if the airwing has 100% efficiency already from range alone, then researching mission efficiency doctrine will not increase the airwing stats. You your self state that mission efficiency cannot go over 100%.
To write in the wiki that efficiency doctrines increases plane stats is not correct. Mission efficiency increases available planes for the airwing in the combat simulation and thus gives a higher airwing stat for the combat simulation, if the efficiency wasnt 100% before the airdoctrine.

Or am i missing something?

And what is an air zone visibility factor? I cannot find this number in the strategic region files for an airzone or anywhere else in the game files?

This has also been tested thoroughly, and as far as I remember efficiency above 100% does not improve performance at all.
.

But you just said earlier that it did? Didnt you?
 

bitmode

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o write in the wiki that efficiency doctrines increases plane stats is not correct. Mission efficiency increases available planes for the airwing in the combat simulation and thus gives a higher airwing stat for the combat simulation, if the efficiency wasnt 100% before the airdoctrine.

Or am i missing something?
Unfortunately different things are currently called "mission efficiency" in the game. There's an efficiency for each wing, influenced by range, weather etc. which influences how well it can perform missions under current circumstances. It controls what percentage of planes in the wing can participate in (any) missions, so this one can't go over 100%.
Then there are mission efficiencies specific to each type of mission, i.e. the ones researched in air doctrines. Those can go beyond 100% (as seen in @Alex_brunius screenshot) because they modify stats. The latter shouldn't really be called "efficiency" but that's just how it is right now
 

Alex_brunius

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But you just said earlier that it did? Didnt you?

No. The doctrine effect "Air Superiority Mission Efficiency" provide benefits above 100%, otherwise the doctrines would do nothing ( since it's 100% base as you can see in the screenshot ).

The concept in air warfare "Mission Efficiency" does not provide benefit above 100%.

Paradox is using the same name for two different things. I agree with you that it's confusing and bad practice, but that is how the game works.
 
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