Can someone explain the supply network?

[quetzilla]

The throughput limit for fuel is the same as the limit for supplies, so unless you make 1000 tank brigades, you're probably not going to hit the limit on a province, and even then they'll be out of supply as well.

I agree ports should be used to bring in supplies.

Did you play Germany from 36 or a later date like 41? .

 

[Modestus]

The throughput limit for fuel is the same as the limit for supplies, so unless you make 1000 tank brigades, you're probably not going to hit the limit on a province, and even then they'll be out of supply as well.

I agree ports should be used to bring in supplies.

Did you play Germany from 36 or a later date like 41? .

Germany from 1936.

For Barbarossa 1941 about 54 armoured brigades, 48 motorised and 26 mechanised, nothing extreme.

 

[unmerged(148613)]

I don't buy the stuff of "this would be too slow, so we can't do it".

If the supply system is complicated to the point that it can't be computed in a way that makes sense, then it should not be that complicated.

Plus, there's very many very fast graph flow algorithms and it really doesn't have to be calculated every day - just when something changes.
Another thing is that it doesn't have to do the iteration thing it seems to do now - it could just calculate the optimum state based on the current map and then do that.

Of course, not being privy to the source, I can't say that there aren't some complicating factors I don't know of .

 

[quetzilla]

I don't buy the stuff of "this would be too slow, so we can't do it".

If the supply system is complicated to the point that it can't be computed in a way that makes sense, then it should not be that complicated.

Plus, there's very many very fast graph flow algorithms and it really doesn't have to be calculated every day - just when something changes.
Another thing is that it doesn't have to do the iteration thing it seems to do now - it could just calculate the optimum state based on the current map and then do that.

Of course, not being privy to the source, I can't say that there aren't some complicating factors I don't know of .

You're missing the point -- the current system IS simple. It's about as simple as the supply system can get. The proposed methods for calculating how supply should be distributed are orders of magnitude more time intensive than the current system. It's the difference between 200 and 200^2.

The problem with "just when something changes" is that people want each province to map to all possible sources of supply, which does change every day. Whereas the current system only has to calculate if a) infra is upgraded, b) occupation status changes, or c) capital moves. And in cases a and b, it only has to recalculate paths that go through the affected provinces.

And I don't know what you're talking about with "the iteration thing it seems to do now". What iteration? The current method IS to calculate the optimum paths based on the current state of the map, and then stick to that unless one of the 3 cases above happens.

(in the case that new provinces are acquired by conquest or annexation etc, it only has to calculate the paths from those provinces to existing provinces, it doesn't have to re-calculate any of the previous pathing).

 

[unmerged(183189)]

Once again, I thank you for the time and effort you've put in to explaining some of the mechanics of the current supply system. But unfortunately, there are still too many anomalies which are sadly not acceptable.

-The capital city, along with any lvl 10 infrastructure cells should NOT be experiencing an inability to throughput the amount of supplies required.

-Players NEED to be given a much higher degree of control over the supply system. To force convoys to ports even if a land bridge is available. To pre-emptively stockpile supplies in a forward location in anticipation of an offensive.

-The tooltips and the UI need to do a much much much better job of explaining what is going on, and where the problem is. If units are going out of supply.. there MUST be a reason for it, and that reason must be something the player can address and rectify. It may be the case that the steps required to rectify any given situation may be substantial and unrealistic ( building a 10 lane highway across the width of Asia so that 1 Tank division gets all the supplies it needs ). It may be the case that highly inefficient means of transport may be required in the form of flooding hundreds of provinces with supplies in an attempt to get supplies where they're needed. Whatever the situation, the player should be given the choice.

It is this lack of feedback from the ingame tooltips/ui that leads to such wide spread confusion and distaste for this current supply system. It is the inability of the player to take many steps that can really affect the logistics network that generates such major frustration. PI, please FIX it.

 

[Redge]

I don't buy the stuff of "this would be too slow, so we can't do it".

that it doesn't have to do the iteration thing it seems to do now

The itteration thing is what I am saying could be done, I doubt it is done in the game, since I also do not have source code, I am only working on ideas for fun, not implementing them in game. And iteration is one of those ideas, but is not part of game.

 

[Redge]

You're missing the point -- the current system IS simple. It's about as simple as the supply system can get. The proposed methods for calculating how supply should be distributed are orders of magnitude more time intensive than the current system. It's the difference between 200 and 200^2.

The problem with "just when something changes" is that people want each province to map to all possible sources of supply, which does change every day. Whereas the current system only has to calculate if a) infra is upgraded, b) occupation status changes, or c) capital moves. And in cases a and b, it only has to recalculate paths that go through the affected provinces.

Well in the for fun, not HOI3 game algos I am working on, when a province has extra supply, it becomes a supplier and broadcasts that it has supplies available, then only units that have supplied their before (and their adjacents) are flagged for repath. At some interval of extra supply build up, a depo rebroadcast to units it supplies to flag their adjacents to repath, since extra supply means they can be a supply source to more provinces. When hitting 0 supply a supplier would broadcast to provs it supplies, to repath again finding supplies elsewhere, but supplier would remember which ones they are so they could be broadcast to when supply stockpiles again.

Basically when a new province has a stockpile and is a supplier, like a depo would be, or like a province with extra supply build up would be (IC).
First day, it flags adjacents to repath.
Second day, if it still has supplies building up it flags provs it supplies to flag their adjacents to repath. (if adjacents have no units they flag adjacents to repath so at least one new province is always repathed)
third day, if supply is still building process continues, but its ignore list contains provinces that were flagged, and already repathed once, and its 'supply to' list contain provinces that have recieved over 50% supply from there. So it remembers who to flag when its conditions change from 0 to extra supply in the future.

The flagging to reparse is really quick, and it only adds a few provinces a day depending on if it has a building surplus of supply.
I am putting most of the weight on memory not speed, with lots of stuff stored, so it will be interesting to see how it works out. Then trying to step out new pathing to make it gradual over many days.
Again this is not part of HOI3 just trying to build a supply system that encorporates more conditions.

 

[unmerged(14719)]

Redge,

Good try explaining how supply works and your ideas on how to mod it.

However, most of us are just gamers, some grognards from a bygone ASL/3rd Reich age.

The switch to PC gaming for hard core strategy fans was to not read tomes of rules and manuals to enjoy our ww2 strategy games. (whoever has read the ASL manuals can attest to this)

Simply put, I can't for the life of me understand why the level 10 Super highway I painfully constructed is found to be not the optimal path compared to the level 3 donkey path the AI is fond of using/pathing.

Or why my Entire Army is supplied by only 1 port while the other ports are not utilized.

 

[Redge]

Redge,

Good try explaining how supply works and your ideas on how to mod it.

However, most of us are just gamers, some grognards from a bygone ASL/3rd Reich age.

The switch to PC gaming for hard core strategy fans was to not read tomes of rules and manuals to enjoy our ww2 strategy games. (whoever has read the ASL manuals can attest to this)

Simply put, I can't for the life of me understand why the level 10 Super highway I painfully constructed is found to be not the optimal path compared to the level 3 donkey path the AI is fond of using/pathing.

Or why my Entire Army is supplied by only 1 port while the other ports are not utilized.

I agree ports and land should be supply, and am trying to model that in an experimental supply engine. That engine has nothing to do with HOI3 except that it uses the game province layout as enviroment.

I am not explaining how HOI3 supply works, I am postulating ideas, and experimenting with a different supply engine concept, to see if it would work. What I am mentioning is not what HOI3 does, but just what supply engine could possibly do, however I still have to prove that by making a simulation work. Don't confuse thoughts on what might be possible, with what is currently or what would ever be in HOI3.

Most developer posts have been that they do not plan to change their supply engine.


I played both Advanced Squad Leader, and Third Reich also. Squad Leader was a really good game, loved the modulating learning with new maps and rules in new scenarios. I think Squad leader is about top tier as far as board games go.

 

[blue emu]

I played both Advanced Squad Leader, and Third Reich also.

There are dozens of us old TAHGC grognards on the Forum... several of us in our 50's.

 

[Chaplain]

I played both Advanced Squad Leader, and Third Reich also. Squad Leader was a really good game, loved the modulating learning with new maps and rules in new scenarios. I think Squad leader is about top tier as far as board games go.

ASL is great, but OCS is tops! (Been playing since 1975 - if you want a great group to connect with, try the ConSimWorld fellas. BG is alive and very well.)

 

[womble]

I'm sorry to crush any dreams about this, but there is no way to do this pathing thing to search for supply other than at the capital that doesn't drastically increase the computing time required on a daily basis.

So:

1) don't do the checks on a daily basis.
2) make the setting up of supply routes a task a player can opt to do.

If you give the players the option to set up supply dumps and the routes between them, the calculations for throughput only need to be done when there are changes to the provinces involved, not every time a unit shuffles left one province.

 

[Redge]

While thinking on the topic, I have heard that the current system is meant to model the lack of supply caused by russian advance and russian winter and lack of rail road infrastructure.

The UI set up of infrastructure seems to be a way to do that, but one of the reasons it seems to not be a logical implementation is where the bottlenecks are.

In the supply engine, the bottlenecks are actually in Germany, you would think the bottlenecks would be across muddy and winter provinces with low infrastructure in Russia.

So as another poster posted, I agree infra should probably be partial expotenial curve , so that if you invest to get to infrastructure 10, it will have 1000 or more ability. But at the same time 1,2,3,4,5, would have more granularity. Maybe something like a range of 0 to 12 of { 2,4,8,14,24,40,80,140,240,400,700,1500,10000 } optimally with some higher cost to build at higher levels. But a level 11 if reached should be stable. So
+1 if capital, +1 if core.(lvl 10 + 1 , 11 for in home core, or 10 +1+1, 12 lvl for capital)

Then with a supply engine that handles many factors, the lack of supply would be caused by level 1,2 infra provs in Russia, while Germany would be able to get supply shipped without bottlenecks.

Rules could be implimented partisan activity either reduces as a percent or an amount or as a level, and things like in core province could give a bump.

You would think that terrain should effect building infra, not once it is built

Russia could get extra bump for when in cores to compensate for low infra 1, 2 in most of its provs. Or Germany could get a drop in Russia for things like trains being different rails. And those things would optimally be accesable by scriptable events.

And weather effects could drop an infrastructure value when computed.

Then the bottlenecks would be where they should be, in the winter/mud on the front, not on the super highways inside Germany.

Just some thoughts on the different ways to do such systems

 

[Modestus]

Well the maths leave me cold but if I have supply problems outside Moscow in 1941 that make sense I would be happy, not much to ask.

 

[unmerged(43630)]

This discussion on the Supply System is very interesting, but alas not much help to those trying to play the Game!

Most developer posts have been that they do not plan to change their supply engine.

If this is true and there is no plan to update the supply engine, then alas the Game will never be really playable!

I totally agree that the throughput of supplies should be dependent on infrastructure but to have units out of supplies when there’s an 100% infrastructure trail back to your Home Country is ridiculous.

One other small thing regarding supplies, ‘who?’ thought of the idea to have units going out of supply when transiting a Country that gives ‘transit rights’, or is this just another bug? After entering the first province the Units just sit there forever! You can’t even supply them by air, classic!

 

[Dalwin]

While not directly pertinent to the obscurities of the HOI3 supply system, I wanted to mention how it was done in another strategic WWII game.

I don't recall the title of the game but it was a Gary Grigsby product of the early 90's.

In this game after supplies were produced in cities (or shipped into ports) they were then dispersed through the command structure. This was much simpler than taking everything from the cities directly to the front line units through one huge net.

Divisions had a supply stockpile as did corps/army etc. HQs. As a unit used up supplies it would ask it's parent HQ for more. Depending on distance and terrain etc. it might get some or all of what it requested.

This system was playable, understandable, and in my eyes adequately realistic.

This was also a game that counted the individual tanks in a division as well as what model they were. When upgrading you got to assign new models to some divisions while keeping others on the obsolete models until the existing stocks of old and new tanks (or planes) warranted upgrading additional units. It had a very satisfying feel to it.

 

[Jazumir]

A little bit trailing off, but in my recent japan game i noticed the following:

Having had supply issues on my chinese front, i sought for a solution and checked on the convoys. It turned out, that the AI did not assign enough transports to have the convoys go at 100%, despite plenty being left in the pool. I actually had to turn the AI for it off (via the ´create convoy´-button) and set them to max manually. I do think, it made a difference, though i lack the experience to tell for sure. I think, as long as their are transports left in the pool, the AI should always max out the convoys, so that they run on 100%. It should also not disband a convoys the first day it thinks its not used anymore - instead, it should check for a couple of days (a week maybe) and if that check returns ´not needed´ for the whole duration, then it should disband that convoy.

 

[jaxpac]

The game should explain what is going on. I agree now it is unplayable for the most part.

I was playing as Canada to test the new AI improvement mod and eventually decided to land some troops in German held france. I staged the invasion in England and then took a level 10 French port. They withstood a bit of a counter attack and I landed some more troops there. Eventually they were all out of supply. I had hundreds of transport ships, thousands of stockpiled supplies. They should be pouring stockpiles into that port as quick as possible. It is a level 10 port that would normally service an entire civilian population/economy. It should obviously be able to supply virtually any size army. But here was a small Canadian army just stuck there with no supplies. I am still just going to let the game play out to see what happens, but this situation leaves the player with explanation of what is happening and no ability to make decisions to solve the problem. I can see why this stuff gets reported as a bug because if it working as intended then the "as intended" part is seriously flawed.

 

[Jazumir]

Did the AI create and max out the convoy to that lvl10 french port? How many divisions did your army consist of? I heard a good rule of thumb was ´1 div for 1 port-lvl´, so maybe you should have landed no more than 10 units (roughly - depending on individual supply-consumption of each brigade)?

 

[Surt]

The game should explain what is going on. I agree now it is unplayable for the most part.

I was playing as Canada to test the new AI improvement mod and eventually decided to land some troops in German held france. I staged the invasion in England and then took a level 10 French port. They withstood a bit of a counter attack and I landed some more troops there. Eventually they were all out of supply. I had hundreds of transport ships, thousands of stockpiled supplies. They should be pouring stockpiles into that port as quick as possible. It is a level 10 port that would normally service an entire civilian population/economy. It should obviously be able to supply virtually any size army. But here was a small Canadian army just stuck there with no supplies. I am still just going to let the game play out to see what happens, but this situation leaves the player with explanation of what is happening and no ability to make decisions to solve the problem. I can see why this stuff gets reported as a bug because if it working as intended then the "as intended" part is seriously flawed.

On normal you get around 4 supplies per port level, enough to serve 2 divisions of inf, so 20 is max per major port, try playing on VH and feel the pain with only 2 supplies per port level