Can Papal States be made the Primary Culture of Umbrian?

[Grand Historian]

I don't really understand why Urbino is the primary culture of Umbrian. It was a small duchy that was almost always under the thumb of the Papal States, while said Papal States ended up controlling most of central Italy at their height. I've also seen an increasing trend of Italian states refusing to return Rome to the Pope even when they will not be able to form Italy, meaning that the Papacy, who often relocates to the Baltics and then Germany, will eventually lose their cores on all their Italian territory and be unable to get Rome back by return cores.

 

[BrokenSky]

I don't really understand why Urbino is the primary culture of Umbrian. It was a small duchy that was almost always under the thumb of the Papal States, while said Papal States ended up controlling most of central Italy at their height. I've also seen an increasing trend of Italian states refusing to return Rome to the Pope even when they will not be able to form Italy, meaning that the Papacy, who often relocates to the Balkans and then Germany, will eventually lose their cores on all their Italian territory and be unable to get Rome back by return cores.

Wouldn't the Papal state losing core on rome be better served by giving them the following event:

Loss of Roma: [Leader]; it has been so long since we have owned Roma that people are begining to suggest we no longer have any right to have it returned to us!
- No! Rome will forever be the home of the Papacy. (gain core on Rome)
- We must allow this to pass. (-5 Prestige, +50 relations with [Rome's owner])
- [Capital] is the New Rome! (Requires total development in Capital of Papal State > total development in Rome; +10 prestige, -50 relations with [Rome's owner], -5 relations with all other catholic nations in Italy Region, +5 relations with all catholic nations in [Region of Capital e.g. Germany], [Capital] gets "New Rome" modifier for 10 years, giving -15 Development Costs)

and making the italian state AI more likely to return rome or else make the penalty for controlling rome as non-papal state, non-italy catholic harsher?

 

[Grand Historian]

Wouldn't the Papal state losing core on rome be better served by giving them the following event:

Loss of Roma: [Leader]; it has been so long since we have owned Roma that people are begining to suggest we no longer have any right to have it returned to us!
- No! Rome will forever be the home of the Papacy. (gain core on Rome)
- We must allow this to pass. (-5 Prestige, +50 relations with [Rome's owner])
- [Capital] is the New Rome! (Requires total development in Capital of Papal State > total development in Rome; +10 prestige, -50 relations with [Rome's owner], -5 relations with all other catholic nations in Italy Region, +5 relations with all catholic nations in [Region of Capital e.g. Germany], [Capital] gets "New Rome" modifier for 10 years, giving -15 Development Costs)

and making the italian state AI more likely to return rome or else make the penalty for controlling rome as non-papal state, non-italy catholic harsher?

I still feel Papal States being the primary culture of Umbrian makes more sense. It also would be less work.

 

[talilu]

What does Umbrian represent in the game, the Roma dialect of Italian? Or was Roma more alike Umbria before Italy formed and centralized, since IIRC Modern Italian is based on Tuscan one.

 

[Grand Historian]

What does Umbrian represent in the game, the Roma dialect of Italian? Or was Roma more alike Umbria before Italy formed and centralized, since IIRC Modern Italian is based on Tuscan one.

Admitted;y, I don't exactly get what you're driving at, but the fact remains that the Papal States were pretty much the only state within the region throughout most of the game's period.

 

[talilu]

I meant, Wiki didn't really give a hint about the existence of a Umbrian language/dialect (or i'm dumb, couldn't find), and the Romensco Dialect of Rome is classified as a Tuscan variety. I just guessed that Tuscan dominated modern Italy and made the capital Tuscan.

Is/Was Rome really Umbrian and should a state that is deeply connected to Rome be Umbrian if Rome was not Umbrian?

Yeah, I think I couldn't really build that sentence

 

[Grand Historian]

I meant, Wiki didn't really give a hint about the existence of a Umbrian language/dialect (or i'm dumb, couldn't find), and the Romensco Dialect of Rome is classified as a Tuscan variety. I just guessed that Tuscan dominated modern Italy and made the capital Tuscan.

Is/Was Rome really Umbrian and should a state that is deeply connected to Rome be Umbrian if Rome was not Umbrian?

Yeah, I think I couldn't really build that sentence

I think the division was more along cultural/traditional grounds than linguistic/dialect.

 

[GiftGruen]

Papal States had a religious legitimisation to own Rome, primary tags are nations that have legitimacy to rule a given culture, since it is considered their nation state. The Papal States were not a nation state, so they shouldn't be primary culture for anyone. Saying Papal States was the primary tag for Umbrian would be like saying the HRE was the primary tag of Austrian, because in the period the vast majority of Emperors were Austrian.

 

[Grand Historian]

Papal States had a religious legitimisation to own Rome, primary tags are nations that have legitimacy to rule a given culture, since it is considered their nation state. The Papal States were not a nation state, so they shouldn't be primary culture for anyone. Saying Papal States was the primary tag for Umbrian would be like saying the HRE was the primary tag of Austrian, because in the period the vast majority of Emperors were Austrian.

No; there is a distinct difference between the Holy See and the Papal States, the latter of which did indeed have secular legitimacy to rule Umbria. And, even then, Urbino never expanded past Urbino, and was always within the territory of the Papal States, so how could it have a legitimate claim to rule Umbria?

 

[GiftGruen]

Still, Papal States weren't considered the one legitimate nation to rule all Umbrian people, which is basically what the idea behind primary tag is. Head of state was the Pope, who was either of any Italian or even French, Spanish or German culture. Urbino on the other hand was located where the modern Italian region of Umbria is.

Also, Papal States is considered to not be bound to one single culture by the game: It can reapear from every Catholic theocracy with different primary culture, and that is also the reason why every single nation formable has the condition that the forming country not be the Papal States. So the game just thinks that if the Papal States would have been wiped off the face of the earth some other theocracy would have taken their place. What legitimacy would such a state have to be primary tag of Umbrian, taking Alsace with primary culture Rheinländer? as an example.

 

[Grand Historian]

Still, Papal States weren't considered the one legitimate nation to rule all Umbrian people, which is basically what the idea behind primary tag is. Head of state was the Pope, who was either of any Italian or even French, Spanish or German culture. Urbino on the other hand was located where the modern Italian region of Umbria is.

Also, Papal States is considered to not be bound to one single culture by the game: It can reapear from every Catholic theocracy with different primary culture, and that is also the reason why every single nation formable has the condition that the forming country not be the Papal States. So the game just thinks that if the Papal States would have been wiped off the face of the earth some other theocracy would have taken their place. What legitimacy would such a state have to be primary tag of Umbrian, taking Alsace with primary culture Rheinländer? as an example.

The Pope himself could be of many different cultures, yes, but that does not mean that the Papal States could not represent Umbria. First; throughout this period only two (I believe) popes were not Italian, and second, saying that the head of state being of a different culture means that that state cannot represent its own culture is ridiculous; Charles V grew up speaking French and yet Spain still represents Spain. A large portion of British Monarchs during this period didn't speak English as their first language (French, Dutch, German), and yet England still represents England.

The Papacy can relocate to a different holding of the Catholic Church in the event that Rome falls, like it did historically in the case of Avignon, but it should not lose it's core on Rome at all. Urbino might be in the place of the modern Italian region of Umbria, but what is defined as Umbria in game was dominated by the Papal States throughout the period. Not to mention the Donation of Pepin essentially gave all that territory to the Pope, meaning that the Papal States were very much considered the one legitimate nation to rule all Umbrian people.

 

[GiftGruen]

Firstly, the Pope relocating to a different holding wouldn't change the primary culture of the Papal States, but the event does. That is why I always thought of it as another theocracy taking its place instead of relocation. And the Donation of Pepin is just a document. Like the treaty between Rev. France and Austria that gave Tyrol to Bavaria was just a document. As a grand historian, you will know how happy the population was to think of themselves as Bavarians there. I don't want to say the Donation wouldn't legitimise the Pope as the ruler of these lands, after all, its whole purpose is to confirm just that.

I'm just torn when it comes to the game's interpretation of primary tag:

On the one hand, I can see that losing Rome and surviving in Romagna or Avignon and then getting back their former land via defection would make sense for the Papal States, more so than the provinces going to Urbino.

On the other hand, let's think of a more bizarre scenario:

A primary tag would only have any meaning if anyone held Umbrian land without being of Umbrian primary culture, so let's imagine someone who didn't give two shits about the Pope and his right to Rome would annex him. Someone like Tunis. The Papal States then reemerge in Salzburg (or any other Germanic HRE landlocked province, which is by far the most likely outcome). Tunis gets wrecked by rebels and Umbrian separatists defect to the Papal States. Now an Austrian (any other Germanic) cultured, probably landlocked, probably HRE member OPM would get Umbrian land, and unless the Pope gets a specific event to relocate its capital to Rome, it cannot relocate its capital from inside the HRE out of it. And I don't think the AI is smart enough to leave the Empire in such a case.

I think that was the main reason why the Pope is not primary tag for its culture: The Papal States have some exceptions and special rules that are no problem for other countries, but since they are special, difficult situations could occur. So to sidestep something that could screw up their system a little more, Paradox just went for the other option of using another tag.

 

[Salje]

If existing Byzantine Empire can lose its core and claim in Constantinople, the Papal State can also lose its claim in Rome.

 

[Grand Historian]

Firstly, the Pope relocating to a different holding wouldn't change the primary culture of the Papal States, but the event does. That is why I always thought of it as another theocracy taking its place instead of relocation. And the Donation of Pepin is just a document. Like the treaty between Rev. France and Austria that gave Tyrol to Bavaria was just a document. As a grand historian, you will know how happy the population was to think of themselves as Bavarians there. I don't want to say the Donation wouldn't legitimise the Pope as the ruler of these lands, after all, its whole purpose is to confirm just that.

I'm just torn when it comes to the game's interpretation of primary tag:

On the one hand, I can see that losing Rome and surviving in Romagna or Avignon and then getting back their former land via defection would make sense for the Papal States, more so than the provinces going to Urbino.

On the other hand, let's think of a more bizarre scenario:

A primary tag would only have any meaning if anyone held Umbrian land without being of Umbrian primary culture, so let's imagine someone who didn't give two shits about the Pope and his right to Rome would annex him. Someone like Tunis. The Papal States then reemerge in Salzburg (or any other Germanic HRE landlocked province, which is by far the most likely outcome). Tunis gets wrecked by rebels and Umbrian separatists defect to the Papal States. Now an Austrian (any other Germanic) cultured, probably landlocked, probably HRE member OPM would get Umbrian land, and unless the Pope gets a specific event to relocate its capital to Rome, it cannot relocate its capital from inside the HRE out of it. And I don't think the AI is smart enough to leave the Empire in such a case.

I think that was the main reason why the Pope is not primary tag for its culture: The Papal States have some exceptions and special rules that are no problem for other countries, but since they are special, difficult situations could occur. So to sidestep something that could screw up their system a little more, Paradox just went for the other option of using another tag.

That's not how the Catholic Church's hierarchy really worked. Granted, the game can't really simulate it perfectly, but it makes more sense for the Papacy to just relocate to one of it's grants in Germany than have that very grant claim it's the successor to the Papacy. I never really did understand why the event was there though; the culture would be pretty much accepted regardless.

Well, I can see your point with that, but the system could be reworked around that; the event that shifts the culture could simply be replaced by one that moves the Pope back to Rome. Or, Rome could simply be designated as the Papacy's fixed capital.

If existing Byzantine Empire can lose its core and claim in Constantinople, the Papal State can also lose its claim in Rome.

Byzantium loses it's core on Constantinople because it's the Byzantine group Union, not the primary culture of Greek. It's made worse by the insta-turk decision the Ottomans get.

 

[GiftGruen]

Heheh, insta-turk...

Well, giving the matter some thought, I think making the Papal States the primary culture of Umbrian is legit. But for it to work well, some mechanics should get a slight rework.

 

[Grand Historian]

Heheh, insta-turk...

Well, giving the matter some thought, I think making the Papal States the primary culture of Umbrian is legit. But for it to work well, some mechanics should get a slight rework.

Agreed, but I think the game would make more sense for it.