Can overseas conquered territory with IC and resources supply the invading army?

[Mr_B0narpte]

I am specifically referring to a scenario where Germany has invaded the USA and has captured much of its IC. Would the invading German army then be able to supply itself from the captured US IC?

If so, then the importance of naval power is significantly diminished but I guess it does make sense for it to be the case.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Only being able to use 15% of the ic minus the revolt risk would not make this very efficient. And it takes 270 days to get ic up to that value after the ic had been repaired. So the answer is in theory yes, in practice it is mild nonsense. Liberating the CSA is far more efficient. And donnot forget Texas for oil.

 

[Commander666]

So the answer is in theory yes, in practice it is mild nonsense.

Actually, even in theory the answer is really no - even if you invade the USA with just one division. You will probably find that it will run out of supply (but more likely be eliminated first).

Practically speaking I would not be so kind as to call it "mild nonsense" but just "nonsense" to better express the amount of supplies consumed by a "fighting army".

If you landed in New York with its 16 factories (as per my Nov 1940 game) and took Newark very soon (with its 15 factories) and had one division to hold your beach head, maybe I will be proved wrong.

As regards any real size fighting army (include aircraft) to take USA as per any invasion of USA I have ever done, I think I was running 300 convoys daily to keep it maintained and increase the stockpile there. The possible 15% of IC minus revolt risk is after the provinces are repaired. If I understand correctly, it is zero IC and only revolt risk upon landing. As unit will have consumed some supplies in amphib, seems only theoretical supply you got left is what remains on unit (10-15 days if in combat?) and the smidgen that was dropped in province upon landing.

Why Mr_BOnarpte? You don't want to run convoys?

However, if you really want to you can actually get around the normal convoys. Using just one unit and one transport you could indefinitely suppy any size army for eternity by simply having that unit jump on the province 10-100 times or more daily (depending on your needs). Every unload from transport will drop more supplies in that province, those supplies taken directly from your "at home stockpile".

As British player I do supply Hong Kong (with one GAR) this way for years without ever running a supply convoy. And if using alliance troop, the supply is taken from their capital stockpile. It can get pretty boring (I do it once a month with about 25 jumps), and for an army the size needed to conquor USA it would be mostly playing "load-unload, load-unload, repeat umpteen times".

So Pang is right - in theory "yes" by resorting to an exploit.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

If you landed in New York with its 16 factories (as per my Nov 1940 game) and took Newark very soon (with its 15 factories) and had one division to hold your beach head, maybe I will be proved wrong.

After the output reaches maximum this will suffice to supply 10 divisions. So if you use 50 divisions for an invasion one could supply them by local production. The real trick are the 270 days it need to ramp up nonnational ic. National ic is ramped up to full efficiency in half that time.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Thanks for your answers. As-to the why I ask, it is because in a mult-player game with a human Germany, USA and USSR, Germany has invaded the USA with ~200 divisions with no German convoys being sunk by the US navy. The Kriegsmarine has not challenged the Allied navies, it just attacked the USA with 104 transport ships that were unsupported. The US navy could not do anything until the Germans had landed in North America as per rules we (with hindsight mistakenly) made before the game.

 

[Commander666]

The real trick are the 270 days it need to ramp up nonnational ic.

I'd like to see Mr_BOnarpte try to survive for 270 days without any convoys! :rofl:

 

[Commander666]

Thanks for your answers. As-to the why I ask, it is because in a mult-player game with a human Germany, USA and USSR, Germany has invaded the USA with ~200 divisions with no German convoys being sunk by the US navy. The Kriegsmarine has not challenged the Allied navies, it just attacked the USA with 104 transport ships that were unsupported. The US navy could not do anything until the Germans had landed in North America as per rules we (with hindsight mistakenly) made before the game.

So German player better check that "auto convoy" box asap, or he may have 200 divisions hopping back on transports and off again many times. Does this Germany maybe not have convoys to support the invasion?

If so (not enough German supply convoys), luckily the jumping on and off transports seems to have a varied result as regards ORG loss. Sometimes there is no effect. With a stack of 12 divisions in a naval base (seems best place to miss the detrimental ORG loss most of the time) I would guesstimate that about 50 "jumps" by that one stack done daily would keep the other 188 divisions supplied and able to do some fighting - indefinitely.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

AFAIK he has no supply problems. He received a certain amount of supplies by taking the Canadian capital, I do not know how much. Maybe I could use open negotiations now to make an estimate, but I don't know what percentage of supplies the German player would have captured from Canada's capital. He has also taken the capital of the USA now, I'll see if the USA player knows how many supplies he had beforehand once I see him again.

Maybe the USA player has not been very good with convoy raiding, but it's just a suggestion as I cannot be sure.

What I do know is that the Germany player only has 2 battleships, and 5 heavy cruiser/battlecruisers and ~20 small ships. I only know that he has ~100 transport ships due to the player saying so! Unfortunately and for whatever stupid reason, the intelligence system does not record transport ships in any shape or form. Without saying more, I have more then enough spies to ensure reliable intelligence. It is also frustrating that the intelligence system does not detail the types of divisions (mot, cavalry, garrison etc - the same applies to smaller ships), or provide an estimate for the enemies' manpower or a more detailed estimate of the enemies' production.

Just to say: I am playing as the USSR in this situation.

 

[Commander666]

Whatever stockples he captured are soon meaningless to German player's need to keep supplying 200 fighting divisions as he will consume that sooner or later. And his KMS has nothing to do with the problem (other than sinking USN trying to sink German supply convoys).

But if he has an overall supply shortage in Berlin, no amount of convoys or "jumping" can transfer supplies to his USA beach head if he doesn't have any in his home stockpile. So that is why you were wondering how much his captured provinces might produce new supplies for him right at the USA.

I did not realize that troop transports are NOT counted in the "small ships" intel estimate. That's handy to know.

As Russia - if you at war with Germany - you can't Open Negotiations with Germany. So guess you not fighting him (yet).

But if his Germany has no supply problems as you think, maybe his convoys are running as is needed. I think it would be most strange for any player to undertake invasion of USA without planning out convoy needs. And if on auto his AI should just cancel incoming resource convoys so he does have minimal overseas supply needs met. He might have his USA stockpile go empty at noon everyday, but that is not critically serious unless no remedy and eventually the troops get lower and lower.

Suggestion: If you not at war with Germany, I believe you can mouse over his beachhead to find his USA supply point and read how much supplies sitting there. Don't quote me on that. Maybe it only works for allies.

EDIT: I just remembered, as UK while at war with Italy, I found their stockpile in North Africa. So, yah, you can "click" on every province of the Eastern Seaboard until you find the German stockpile that must be there somewhere, and view what it contains and how it changes hourly.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Whatever stockples he captured are soon meaningless to German player's need to keep supplying 200 fighting divisions as he will consume that sooner or later. And his KMS has nothing to do with the problem (other than sinking USN trying to sink German supply convoys).

I wish this were the case. Within a month of his invasion he has reduced the USA's effective IC to less then 200 and seemingly has little restriction in his path, and no problems with supply.

But if he has an overall supply shortage in Berlin, no amount of convoys or "jumping" can transfer supplies to his USA beach head if he doesn't have any in his home stockpile. So that is why you were wondering how much his captured provinces might produce new supplies for him right at the USA.

He stockpiled a lot of supplies pre-war, but I donnot know how much in total.

I did not realize that troop transports are NOT counted in the "small ships" intel estimate. That's handy to know.

It's also annoying to know in the sense that it makes no sense and further weakens an already weak intelligence system.

As Russia - if you at war with Germany - you can't Open Negotiations with Germany. So guess you not fighting him (yet).

We cannot go to war until April 1941 due to another rule we made. The Germany player is exploiting the rules to a ridiculous extreme, but I guess he has to in order to a stand a chance of beating us. But then again I'm confident I'll beat him even with the USA under his control (which looks inevitable by now). Open negotiations only shows me he has at least 10k of everything.

But if his Germany has no supply problems as you think, maybe his convoys are running as is needed. I think it would be most strange for any player to undertake invasion of USA without planning out convoy needs. And if on auto his AI should just cancel incoming resource convoys so he does have minimal overseas supply needs met. He might have his USA stockpile go empty at noon everyday, but that is not critically serious unless no remedy and eventually the troops get lower and lower.

Remember most units have 14-28 day stockpiles of supplies. He's probably used offensive supply as well, prolonging this.

Suggestion: If you not at war with Germany, I believe you can mouse over his beachhead to find his USA supply point and read how much supplies sitting there. Don't quote me on that. Maybe it only works for allies.

It only works for allies, and when you have a surface ship next to that province. There are no Soviet naval bases within 3000km of the American east coast.

 

[Commander666]

It only works for allies, and when you have a surface ship next to that province. There are no Soviet naval bases within 3000km of the American east coast.

Oh, OK. This confirms I do indeed have UK surface fleet offshore from that Italian stockpile. But why it only work for the Allies? It must be the UK's MI6 and all non-allied countries are nimbos! :rofl:

What an unfair rule. Glad I'm playing the UK!

I wish this were the case. Within a month of his invasion he has reduced the USA's effective IC to less then 200 and seemingly has little restriction in his path, and no problems with supply. We cannot go to war until April 1941 due to another rule we made. The Germany player is exploiting the rules to a ridiculous extreme, but I guess he has to in order to a stand a chance of beating us. But then again I'm confident I'll beat him even with the USA under his control (which looks inevitable by now).

Well now, this sounds like your whole thread here and questions are you trying to figure out how to beat this guy before he gets those 200 divisions back to Poland! Or maybe he'll bring them to the Philippines! GOOD LUCK come April 1941. What date is it now?

 

[Epaminondas]

The Germany player is exploiting the rules to a ridiculous extreme

He's required to, it's part of the oath we all take.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Oh, OK. This confirms I do indeed have UK surface fleet offshore from that Italian stockpile. But why it only work for the Allies? It must be the UK's MI6 and all non-allied countries are nimbos! :rofl:

What an unfair rule. Glad I'm playing the UK!

Why should a neutral country be able to automatically see the supply depots of every other country? I don't get that logic to be honest.

Well now, this sounds like your whole thread here and questions are you trying to figure out how to beat this guy before he gets those 200 divisions back to Poland! Or maybe he'll bring them to the Philippines! GOOD LUCK come April 1941. What date is it now?

The Red Army is prepared for those 200 divisions! It's early-May 1940, we can't continue until this Wednesday.

He's required to, it's part of the oath we all take.

Ha, I guess so. The two players moaned at me for being so 'hardcore' when I was Germany, this guy has taken it to a new extreme.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Remember most units have 14-28 day stockpiles of supplies. He's probably used offensive supply as well, prolonging this.

OS does only increase the speed at which supplies are beamed from supply depot to the stockpile of the unit. So if the supply depot is the problem things will not change by OS.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

OS does only increase the speed at which supplies are beamed from supply depot to the stockpile of the unit. So if the supply depot is the problem things will not change by OS.

Ah ok thanks, good to know!

 

[Commander666]

Why should a neutral country be able to automatically see the supply depots of every other country? I don't get that logic to be honest.

I agree. Better yet, "Why should anybody else know that info?" Or why would the Allies have an intel advantage for that? If anybody else can view foreign supply dumps, seems reasonable everybody else can view them too. But best would be it requires a certain degree of intel (ministers, spies, techs) to view other countries' supply dumps. Another country' supply dumps really should only be visible to alliance members. A reasonable degree of intel should be needed by all others to see that - especially if at war with with that country.

The Red Army is prepared for those 200 divisions! It's early-May 1940, we can't continue until this Wednesday.

For your sake I hope so. I guess this guy probably already did a successful Sea Lion too. Only May 1940 and blitzing the USA. Sounds like this guy might be a master of the old strategy "divide and conquer". Poland... France... British Isles... USA... Canada - like dominos. Who's left? Oh, Mr_BOnarpte!

Ha, I guess so. The two players moaned at me for being so 'hardcore' when I was Germany, this guy has taken it to a new extreme.

This all sounds quite interesting. But who is this guy, Epaminondas? Or is Epaminondas the guy losing the USA?

 

[Lord Jarski]

Germany didnt bother about UK, just went straight for the USA after securing Suez, Gibraltar, Spain and Portugal to the Axis.

Reason for that is, we had a rule that USA can join the war if Germany attempts a Sealion. We also had a rule that USA can only join if the German troops actually manage to land on American soil. So he didnt do a Sealion in order to keep me and my fleet out of the war, so that he could land a 100 or so divisions to Canada uncontested.

British army and navy is mostly intact although in a mess, so the Allies have no intention of giving up.

And yes, im the USA who got his ass handed over to him

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

I agree. Better yet, "Why should anybody else know that info?" Or why would the Allies have an intel advantage for that? If anybody else can view foreign supply dumps, seems reasonable everybody else can view them too. But best would be it requires a certain degree of intel (ministers, spies, techs) to view other countries' supply dumps. Another country' supply dumps really should only be visible to alliance members. A reasonable degree of intel should be needed by all others to see that - especially if at war with with that country.

I agree, but it's hard to implement that in the game. What I would really like to see is an intelligence system that actually provides useful intelligence in regards to the military of other countries. While the research intel is quite handy, the military side is quite lacking.

For your sake I hope so. I guess this guy probably already did a successful Sea Lion too. Only May 1940 and blitzing the USA. Sounds like this guy might be a master of the old strategy "divide and conquer". Poland... France... British Isles... USA... Canada - like dominos. Who's left? Oh, Mr_BOnarpte!

Well he can try invading the UK but will most likely fail. This time his enemies won't be completely incapacitated by the rules!

This all sounds quite interesting. But who is this guy, Epaminondas? Or is Epaminondas the guy losing the USA?

Epaminondas is unfortunately not playing in our game, but he is welcome to join us for any future game.

British army and navy is mostly intact although in a mess, so the Allies have no intention of giving up.

Which is great the hear!

And yes, im the USA who got his ass handed over to him

Well the rules were pretty stupid to be fair. I just assumed any human Germany would not attempt an invasion of the USA because it seemed suicidal to me. I will still stick by that assumption, unless Germany defeats the USSR. But anyway the rule was unfair on the USA and makes little sense in reality. Even with the majority of Americans being pacifists, I'm sure they would've gone to war had over 100 German transport ships been spotted off the North American coast.

 

[Epaminondas]

Epaminondas is unfortunately not playing in our game, but he is welcome to join us for any future game.

It may be unfortunate for some but, looking at the amount of lateral thinking going on here, it's not at all unfortunate for Epaminondas - likelihood is that his would have been just another ass comprehensively kicked.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

It may be unfortunate for some but, looking at the amount of lateral thinking going on here, it's not at all unfortunate for Epaminondas - likelihood is that his would have been just another ass comprehensively kicked.

Haha! Well it seems the Germany player is the only one who has done the lateral thinking, with Lord Jarski taking a battering while I have to watch on helplessly! But getting your ass kicked does not necessarily mean total defeat

My point is that with only 1 out of the 3 of us seemingly capable of lateral thinking, you would most likely do better then you think.