Can Jerusalem get Cardinals in 1.14?

[grisamentum]

Catholic is the only religion in the game that put limits on who is able to make use of the religion. No other religion do that. It is kind of ironic that one of the most global religion would be the most strict one in who is able to make use of it.

Better just let everyone that follow this religion be able to get Cardinals.

How about this:

Cardinals can always from the continent that the Papacy's capital is on. Cardinals can also come from regions of other continents, if the overseas region border the Pope's continent. Jerusalem is magic and always gets one, too (or something like that)

 

[grommile]

It's understandable that you should be shut out of the papal controller game, but you should still be able to collect papal influence to spend on bonuses. Maybe have overseas papal influence be based off of development of Catholic provinces? Supporting the expansion of the faith all over the world would definitely be viewed favorably.

Supporting the expansion of the faith by conquering and converting heathens and heretics is already rewarded with papal influence.

 

[Guancyto]

I'd like some way for overseas countries to get more papal influence. There's really no reason to stay Catholic if you aren't in Europe.

It's understandable that you should be shut out of the papal controller game, but you should still be able to collect papal influence to spend on bonuses. Maybe have overseas papal influence be based off of development of Catholic provinces? Supporting the expansion of the faith all over the world would definitely be viewed favorably.

Worth noting that even though South American Catholic nations didn't get Cardinals until outside the timeframe of the game, the Catholic Church (and loyalty to it) was an incredibly powerful institution and means of social control.

Heck, SAmerica is probably the place where the Church retains the largest fraction of the power it used to wield, even today. I'd definitely support some kind of boost to RotW pope mana to represent the benefits that being a good Catholic overseas gives to the nation in question (even without access to the curia) and to give such nations (say, an independent Brazil, or Japan, or Ming) some reason to bother.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Supporting the expansion of the faith by conquering and converting heathens and heretics is already rewarded with papal influence.

But it's only a one-off bonus, and even if you're constantly conquering and converting, you're probably not getting papal influence at anywhere near the level of Europeans with cardinals.

And that makes the faith useless. The bonuses to Catholicism rely on papal influence, and if you're going to be cut off from getting the pope on your side, you should at least get a steady influence gain so you can buy the unique bonuses that are the only other thing that make Catholicism worth it.

 

[Chaos_TLW]

Colonial nations and other subject states should get cardinals, but instead of representing the colonial nation itself, they could be counted as the overlord nation's cardinals, except maybe if above a certain liberty desire, say 75%. Mix in a decreased chance for cardinal generation overseas, the fact that the Americas and Africa are generally piss-poor and maybe not count them as candidates for the Curia, and that might do it, IMO.

 

[Denkt]

I think what Me_ said would work better because we really don't need to give big colonizers an extra buff.

But independent Catholic nations should be able to get cardinals no matter were they live.

 

[Lord_P]

-In case it's in the Americas/Australia/Oceania they must have the technology to make a boat that can get to Rome

I'm imagining a whole bunch of Polynesians in reed skirts, one with a bishop's hat and cane, trying to build a boat that could carry the newfangled cardinal to Rome.

 

[kviiri]

From our perspective maybe. But not from the perspective of the Italian cardinals and popes who controlled the curia and the papacy in the time of the game.

That's just hindsight. In EU4 it's not uncommon for Protestants to take over Italy, and for the mightiest Catholic forces to lie somewhere else entirely.

 

[Lord_P]

That's just hindsight. In EU4 it's not uncommon for Protestants to take over Italy, and for the mightiest Catholic forces to lie somewhere else entirely.

In my games it's usually a Reformed Italy. The Reformed Reformation usually reaches the very doorstep of the Papacy.

 

[kviiri]

In my games it's usually a Reformed Italy. The Reformed Reformation usually reaches the very doorstep of the Papacy.

"When I said 'give them the boot', this isn't what I meant!"
--Pope Incontinentus XLII, the Last Roman Catholic Bishop of Rome

 

[Philadelphus]

I'm imagining a whole bunch of Polynesians in reed skirts, one with a bishop's hat and cane, trying to build a boat that could carry the newfangled cardinal to Rome.

And considering they were freely navigating the Pacific centuries before Columbus stumbled upon the Americas, they could probably do it too!

(Great mental picture though.)

 

[grisamentum]

That's just hindsight. In EU4 it's not uncommon for Protestants to take over Italy, and for the mightiest Catholic forces to lie somewhere else entirely.

Again, the point of the college of Cardinals was never to represent the interests of Catholics around the world. It was a power clique that was dominated by a specific circle of people. The Pope chooses the cardinals, and the cardinals choose the Pope. The fact that there is a rich and powerful Catholic nation somewhere has zero bearing on it. It was never a representative institution.

Should that be able to adjust based on what happens, like Reformed Italy conquers Rome and forces the Papacy elsewhere (like back to Avignon or even something crazy like North Africa)? Sure. But it doesn't mean that the nature of the college of cardinals will turn into some world parliament of Catholics. The two issues have nothing to do with each other.

 

[SignedName]

Holy Roman Emperor Curia Controller Kongo?

Easy fix: you have to have discovered Rome to be Curia Controller. Late-game might be wonky, but late game is always wonky.

 

[Woifee]

Only Ulm should be able to have cardinals.

 

[horngeek]

@Wiz Would you consider letting Jerusalem keep the units of the nation that formed them if that's possible? The Knight's new models are great but feel a bit redundant as they are replaced with eastern unit models when you form Jerusalem which I assume most Knight's players would do.

In general, I'd like for formables to be able to keep a lot of the events and features (particuarly unit models) of the nations that formed them, so +1 to this idea.

 

[Will Steel]

A noobish question. Nations that originate from somewhere outside Europe but shift their capital there and have Catholic religion, are they allowed to have cardinals and be Papal controllers like every other Catholic in that continet?

 

[Shavanna]

Why not limit it:
a) by Techgroup; only western or eastern Tech can get cardinals
b) by location; only provinces that were colonized at the beginning of the gametime and outside of the colonial regions could get cardinals. Thus: no cardinals in colonies. (The first cardinal from america -according to wikipedia- was appointed in 1875)
c) by papal relation: only those who have a relation above 0 can get a cardinal (why should the pope appoint an (in case of eu4 rather loyal) cardinal of a nation he dont like?)

 

[huyderman]

Seems to me the most straightforward and reasonable would be to just reduce the chance of getting a cardinal the farther you are from the Holy See. That way Italians and Europeans would continue to dominate the Curia if the Holy See stays in Rome, but still facilitate for wacky shenanigans like the Papal State getting expelled from Rome or if all of Europe stops being Catholic.

 

[kviiri]

Again, the point of the college of Cardinals was never to represent the interests of Catholics around the world. It was a power clique that was dominated by a specific circle of people. The Pope chooses the cardinals, and the cardinals choose the Pope. The fact that there is a rich and powerful Catholic nation somewhere has zero bearing on it. It was never a representative institution.

Well, in EU4 it actually is a representative institution. Every Catholic nation (in Europe) is eligible for cardinals, and the selection is even biased to favor a roughly equal spread instead of the biggest three or so pulling all the strings. But limiting this selection to Europe is just nonsense.

 

[Nyrael]

Again, the point of the college of Cardinals was never to represent the interests of Catholics around the world. It was a power clique that was dominated by a specific circle of people. The Pope chooses the cardinals, and the cardinals choose the Pope. The fact that there is a rich and powerful Catholic nation somewhere has zero bearing on it. It was never a representative institution.

And what Popes cared about the most was money. If a nation from a discriminated region was powerful enough, a good Catholic and offered loads of money, he would happily accept a Cardinal from them and after that Cardinals from that continent would become more common.
With that said, some regions like North Africa, Anatolia and western Middle East should always have the ability to give Cardinals. All those were seen as part of Europe in those times.

And getting Cardinals should rob that nation from RotW boost that Catholics outside Pope's continent should be getting.