Can Jerusalem get Cardinals in 1.14?

[Nijato]

I agree with this, Jerusalem should be able to get Cardinal.

With the new area/region/super-region mechanism, I would even argue that regions in the Mediterranean should get cardinals if converted to catholicism. Basically, regions on the South of this map should get the ability to spawn cardinals. During the game period, those dioceses still existed on paper.

Eeeeeerm that's not christian docieses, that's the roman ones. A diocese were an administrative area under the roman empire, not a religious one. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_diocese)

 

[MiniaAr]

Eeeeeerm that's not christian docieses, that's the roman ones. A diocese were an administrative area under the roman empire, not a religious one. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_diocese)

Indeed, but the same page said that " formal church hierarchy was set up, parallel to the civil administration, whose areas of responsibility often coincided".
But the map is not really the point. The point is that if a catholic power would to regain those areas, the Church would reactivate the dormant hierarchy there and name bishops and eventually cardinals. This is not the same with the New World or Asia, where Church organisation had to be created from scratch.

In the later organization of the Roman Empire, the increasingly subdivided provinces were administratively associated in a larger unit, the diocese (Latin dioecesis, from the Greek term διοίκησις, meaning "administration").
With the adoption of Christianity as the Empire's official religion in the 4th century, the clergy assumed official positions of authority alongside the civil governors. A formal church hierarchy was set up, parallel to the civil administration, whose areas of responsibility often coincided.

 

[Nijato]

Not a problem

 

[Willem IV]

I agree with the OP that North Africa and the levant should be able to deliver cardinals. Everything sub-saharan out of the question, too far from Rome.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I agree with the OP that North Africa and the levant should be able to deliver cardinals. Everything sub-saharan out of the question, too far from Rome.

DIstance alone isn't a rational basis. A giant influential Catholic nation from basically anywhere could in theory have cardinals.

 

[grisamentum]

Cardinals and even Popes from the Holy Land were pretty normal before Jerusalem was lost to the Muslims. It only makes sense for them to become normal once Jerusalem is taken back.

From our perspective maybe. But not from the perspective of the Italian cardinals and popes who controlled the curia and the papacy in the time of the game.

People should realize that even now, IRL, Europe has by far the most cardinals. Even though the vast majority of Catholics live outside of Europe.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

From our perspective maybe. But not from the perspective of the Italian cardinals and popes who controlled the curia and the papacy in the time of the game.

In a given game, the Papal state might not even be in Rome and most of the cardinals might not be Italian. There's no particular reason Jerusalem or Northern Africa is less plausible than Sweden or the Caucuses in an alternative history progression.

 

[grisamentum]

In a given game, the Papal state might not even be in Rome and most of the cardinals might not be Italian. There's no particular reason Jerusalem or Northern Africa is less plausible than Sweden or the Caucuses in an alternative history progression.

I totally agree. But mostly that won't happen. And the game lacks any procedure for determining what's "plausible" anyway - there's no institutional evolution.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I totally agree. But mostly that won't happen. And the game lacks any procedure for determining what's "plausible" anyway - there's no institutional evolution.

The developers/posters on this forum/basically everyone lacks procedure for determining what's "plausible" in game-context, because the game's context allows outcomes quite wildly different from the historical scenario at a given year. The devs do it based on whim/believing it might be fun/whatever and people mostly argue from hindsight bias rather than any coherent reasoning.

When you get right down to it though, the European cardinal restriction doesn't make sense in historical or game terms. It's the kind of thing that prevents "kingdom of Jerusalem" from having cardinals in the vast majority of its empire while a Japan that conquers through Persia and owns some of the Caucuses + Russia can have the maximum 7 cardinals available to a country, even though the country wasn't even Catholic 25 years prior.

One could just restrict it from colonial governments and call it a day, or do something else entirely. Its current implementation is awkward though. I don't miss the micromanagement of the old setup at all, but it did make more sense wrt gameplay because the giant Catholic nations put investment into their curia and who had the influence was based on consistent criteria + strength of a Catholic nation. Right now, a nation could be triple the size of any other Catholic power in the world and be locked into having 0 cardinals, even if the Papal State is allied to them. That's not intuitive at all .

 

[grisamentum]

The developers/posters on this forum/basically everyone lacks procedure for determining what's "plausible" in game-context, because the game's context allows outcomes quite wildly different from the historical scenario at a given year. The devs do it based on whim/believing it might be fun/whatever and people mostly argue from hindsight bias rather than any coherent reasoning.

When you get right down to it though, the European cardinal restriction doesn't make sense in historical or game terms. It's the kind of thing that prevents "kingdom of Jerusalem" from having cardinals in the vast majority of its empire while a Japan that conquers through Persia and owns some of the Caucuses + Russia can have the maximum 7 cardinals available to a country, even though the country wasn't even Catholic 25 years prior.

One could just restrict it from colonial governments and call it a day, or do something else entirely. Its current implementation is awkward though. I don't miss the micromanagement of the old setup at all, but it did make more sense wrt gameplay because the giant Catholic nations put investment into their curia and who had the influence was based on consistent criteria + strength of a Catholic nation. Right now, a nation could be triple the size of any other Catholic power in the world and be locked into having 0 cardinals, even if the Papal State is allied to them. That's not intuitive at all .

I don't know - I think it does make sense in historical terms, in the abstract. The papacy and the college of cardinals have always been extremely Eurocentric institutions. There were precisely zero cardinals from the Western Hemisphere until 1875, even though there were rich and powerful Catholics in the Americas. The Papacy was/is a European intrigue game - not some kind of parliament of Catholics meant to represent the global interests of Catholics. (Even actual democratic parliaments didn't do that in this era.)

Overall I agree that when things are different in the game, institutions in the game should take that into account. (Like why can only Austria do the Pragmatic Sanction? Dumb.) But this isn't really that case. Maybe a strong Kingdom of Jerusalem could control cardinals, but it's not clear what that would mean. There were cardinals associated with Jerusalem and Constantinople IRL (even under Muslim rule) but it was just another slot to be fought over by European interests.

 

[Denkt]

Catholic is the only religion in the game that put limits on who is able to make use of the religion. No other religion do that. It is kind of ironic that one of the most global religion would be the most strict one in who is able to make use of it.

Better just let everyone that follow this religion be able to get Cardinals.

 

[Rusky]

Truly, why not? The Kongolese cardinals shall work tirelessly to make sure Africans won't be oppressed in church politics.

Exactly because of it.
The only way the Vatican held power is by giving religious favors to European powers because it was made up of European nobles. If it suddenly started favoring some place in sub-saharan africa over European noble families, it would loose all credibility.
And I can't see how this would happen ether sense the cardinals were part or the European Nobility, were they not?
The European powers were on their way to civilize the savages and profit off of it,
not be all politically correct and bend over to them because they abused them a little less then they did themselves while providing culture and technology.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Exactly because of it.
The only way the Vatican held power is by giving religious favors to European powers because it was made up of European nobles. If it suddenly started favoring some place in sub-saharan africa over European noble families, it would loose all credibility.
And I can't see how this would happen ether sense the cardinals were part or the European Nobility, were they not?
The European powers were on their way to civilize the savages and profit off of it,
not be all politically correct and bend over to them because they abused them a little less then they did themselves while providing culture and technology.

That Kongo might be breathing down everyone's neck.

Hindsight bias is a cognitive failure, not a valid argument.

 

[Willem IV]

Maybe, the chance of getting a cardinal should decrease the futher the province is away from Rome. It should reaulta in almost impossible chance for the New World.

 

[Mauer]

I'd rather catholicism be buffed for nations outside Europe and surrounding areas some other way, like making the spending of papal points cost half for them to make up for the lack of gain of influence from cardinals.
Nations with their capital in North Africa or the Middle East by all means give them cardinals, so Kongo has to move it's capital closer to where all the catholic powers are to be taken seriously.

OR

Maybe the new regions can be used to this effect, any region that borders two or three other regions with a majority of catholic nations can generate cardinals as well.

 

[Mister X]

I think it should work like this:

1. Colonial nations get a absolutely abysmal once in every 1000 attempts to get a cardinal, other nations that aren't independent should also have a reduced chance of getting cardinal but not that much.
2. If a non-european nation is catholic and wants to have cardinals and stuff, they must:
-Have Rome discovered
-Have a land or sea connection to Rome discovered
-In case it's in the Americas/Australia/Oceania they must have the technology to make a boat that can get to Rome

 

[solidprice]

I do like 1.
North Africa, Egypt and Levant should have cardinals.

And as a rotw cathloic, why the hell should I stay catholic?
There's no postive reason why other than releations w/other catholics and maybe slightly easier to convert lands.
Going reformed for on tap Muslim morale or swiss army knife protestant tops it.
I would really like a rotw reduction for papal influence cost for rotw.

I'd rather catholicism be buffed for nations outside Europe and surrounding areas some other way, like making the spending of papal points cost half for them to make up for the lack of gain of influence from cardinals.
Nations with their capital in North Africa or the Middle East by all means give them cardinals, so Kongo has to move it's capital closer to where all the catholic powers are to be taken seriously.

OR

Maybe the new regions can be used to this effect, any region that borders two or three other regions with a majority of catholic nations can generate cardinals as well.

 

[Rusky]

That Kongo might be breathing down everyone's neck.

Hindsight bias is a cognitive failure, not a valid argument.

All im saying is that the Vatican and what it was, was used at the time as a tool to be the intermediary to European politics and represented European powers. Unless you had the power to subjugate the collective Catholic states, they would never accept it.
And even if they were in a position momentarily where they had to pay lip-service to the sub-saharins, they would look for every possible opportunity to break away from it.
Sub-Saharins accepted in the Vatican, which still holds legitimacy over European Powers, to the point where they dictate to Europe how they should treat the Sub-Saharins is laughable.

No hindsight needed. It's what the Vatican was to it's core that would prevent it from doing the silly thing like allowing sub-saharin representation.
If anything, the Vatican would try to label the Kononese 'heretics' and have them burned at the stake for daring to talk about the holy scripture while they unite Europe and all the good Catholics to fight them.

Places in North Africa i can under stand. But Sub-saharins, plz....

 

[DJConnelly]

@Wiz Would you consider letting Jerusalem keep the units of the nation that formed them if that's possible? The Knight's new models are great but feel a bit redundant as they are replaced with eastern unit models when you form Jerusalem which I assume most Knight's players would do.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I'd like some way for overseas countries to get more papal influence. There's really no reason to stay Catholic if you aren't in Europe.

It's understandable that you should be shut out of the papal controller game, but you should still be able to collect papal influence to spend on bonuses. Maybe have overseas papal influence be based off of development of Catholic provinces? Supporting the expansion of the faith all over the world would definitely be viewed favorably.