Can it be done?: Historical US production

[sterrius]

Wait are you claiming that from Jan 1 1936 till about July 1 1937 playing as the US you can build 10 CIC OR 20 MIC OR 21 NIC?

Simply answer. Yes.

10-11 actually.

You have 32 factorys available at january 36 even with 0 exports.

30 factorys will end 2 civ factorys each at may 29. +2 in oct 8 (with construction I). +2 in february (construction II kicks in here) and finally finishing with 8 civil factorys around mid 37.

You will have 2-7 civil factorys from your new ones + Exports giving you the 2-3 remaining.


You can use WPA and rush a +10% mil and dockyard production (war industrialist 150PP). Maybe squeeze +2 mil. factorys or dockyards but thats all you can build in 1936 to jun-july 1937.

But thats it. With other countrys the number is much much smaller.

the payoff time on building CIC depends on how much you need to import.

More i play less the need for imports i feel from 36 to 37 no matter the major.

The production in 1936 is very low and the CIC works at 100% when they are building. Also getting a extra 1-3 civ factorys to trade like you showed can worth its weight in gold.

So until i finished basic machine tools and industry I i avoid importing like the plague.

If i can keep production above 50% without importing i will just place 10 factorys there and keep going.

At least until i finally start having machine tools II.

Also this barely affects most majors because most majors need to research some 1936 equipment before actually producing it. Planes, ships and tanks takes 160 days and thats almost half a year already.

 

[jju_57]

Simply answer. Yes.

Then your simply answer is, well simply wrong. Want proof just load up a new game as US and check the completion dates for MIC/CIC and NIC.

MIC with 15 CIC build will be done on 16 March 1936
CIC with 15 CIC build will be done on 29 May 1936
NIC with 15 CIC build will be done on 8 Feb 1936

You left out the economic law impact which is huge at 50%. There were be TWICE as many NIC built as MIC.



Once again I'll state it. Build NIC till you have all you need otherwise you are wasting CIC.

 

[sterrius]

the payoff time on building CIC depends on how much you need to import.

Then your simply answer is, well simply wrong. Want proof just load up a new game as US and check the completion dates for MIC/CIC and NIC.

MIC with 15 CIC build will be done on 16 March 1936
CIC with 15 CIC build will be done on 29 May 1936
NIC with 15 CIC build will be done on 8 Feb 1936

You left out the economic law impact which is huge at 50%. There were be TWICE as many NIC built as MIC.

View attachment 202579 View attachment 202580 View attachment 202581

Once again I'll state it. Build NIC till you have all you need otherwise you are wasting CIC.

Yeah, i left out the 50% penalty that does not apply to dockyards. I was tired after making all the earlier tests and just simulated without actually playing.

Still it does not change the calculations i did on the earlier post that CIC made until june 1937 will pay themselves around march 1942 and give you extra factorys or dockyards after that. If your objective is to maximize production by march 45 too meet historical production thats the way to go and min-max the production.

For MP i said multiple times going CIC with the US is not worth it. Going dockyard like you said is the way. Same can be said for england and france.

Only the axis can have some benefit from making CIC in 36 in a MP game. As they pay themselves in 39, and only if you go a slow strategy, likely because of house rules.

Unless you're italy. Always worth doing it with italy as they need all CIC they can get.

 

[jju_57]

Still it does not change the calculations i did on the earlier post that CIC made until 1937 will pay themselves in 1942 and give you extra factorys or dockyards. If your objective is to maximize production by march 45 thats the way to go.

Sorry but this statement is factually wrong for dockyards. I didn't crunch you numbers on MIC but let's assume it's correct. The same numbers san not be used for dockyards.

In fact almost the OPPOSITE is in play. As you change your economic laws they benefit CIC and MIC but have zero impact on dockyards. Dockyards do not get cheaper/faster to build. Only construction techs impact them (and some ministers). So in 1936 a dockyard takes half the time as a MIC. But later in war a MIC can be 30% FASTER than a dockyard. The BE analysis can not be identical for dockyards and MIC.

Bottom line is from a purely economic standpoint you only build NIC (and infra after the 36 election) till you are happy with the numbers built. Then you switch out to other things.

Finally, your analysis, like most on CIC BE left out the equipment you actually get from MIC instead of CIC. So the BE is a actually LATER when you add in MIC equipment built.

 

[sterrius]

Sorry but this statement is factually wrong for dockyards. I didn't crunch you numbers on MIC but let's assume it's correct. The same numbers san not be used for dockyards.

In fact almost the OPPOSITE is in play. As you change your economic laws they benefit CIC and MIC but have zero impact on dockyards. Dockyards do not get cheaper/faster to build. Only construction techs impact them (and some ministers). So in 1936 a dockyard takes half the time as a MIC. But later in war a MIC can be 30% FASTER than a dockyard. The BE analysis can not be identical for dockyards and MIC.

Bottom line is from a purely economic standpoint you only build NIC (and infra after the 36 election) till you are happy with the numbers built. Then you switch out to other things.

Finally, your analysis, like most on CIC BE left out the equipment you actually get from MIC instead of CIC. So the BE is a actually LATER when you add in MIC equipment built.

Ok. So lets test how many ships are we talking about and how many dockyards you can actually build until Dez 38,

Target: 60 dockyards (10 on all, 15 on cruisers and destroyers)

Game 1 Dockyard first.
game 2 CIC first

Same techs.

For natioanl Focus. WPA > Technocracy > Bureau of Ships > Escort focus. Not going intervention/awakening in 38,

Same techs. Focus on construction and concetration of factorys I and eletronics I and II (after technocracy) to speed early techs.
Only did research until 37 lvs.

Placing 10 Dockyards on each design of ship in that order.
Carrier II > Subs II > Light cruiser II (replacing with heavycruiser II after research in 180days) > Destroyers II > Battleship II.

- did not cancelled the 3 ships already under construction. (1 destroyer, 1 sub and 1 heavy cruiser tier 1 all).
Imported chromium to meed demands.



Game1.
Finished 60 dockyards on august 37.
Game 2
Finished 60 dockyards on 9 nov 38


On 1 jan 39.

Game 2 did 109 ships
Game 1 did 145 ships

1 carrier, 2 battleships, 5 Heavy cruisers, 11 light cruisers, 27 destroyers and 0 Sub difference.


You don´t need this to meet historical navy production. You can still meet the quota by 45 easily.

And in exchange you get more Mil. Factorys in 42 and 43 taking all the IC above back with interest and on land/air troops that also have high demands.

 

[amalric de g.]

Enough to defeat the Axis at any rate.

*cough, cough* a little exaggerated.

Your 586 IC is nice, but thats not so much. As germany (1943) you can easily have over 800 IC and i´m not the min/max player. In nearly all my games, i didn´t build a single CIC or MIC from 1940 onwards.

 

[jju_57]

OK did the NIC first then MIC and here's what I got. I got to 60 NIC on July 29, 1937 which was shortly before you. I then switched over to MIC and was able to build 21 more MIC from July 29th through November 7th 1938 (2 days before the CIC hit 60 NIC).

So you forgot to add that when you first start with your CIC you are 21 MIC and all that equipment behind on November 9th 1938. While you eventually overtake the MIC build it will take a very long time to get past all that excess MIC equipment that the 21 additional MIC has built.

 

[sterrius]

OK did the NIC first then MIC and here's what I got. I got to 60 NIC on July 29, 1937 which was shortly before you. I then switched over to MIC and was able to build 21 more MIC from July 29th through November 7th 1938 (2 days before the CIC hit 60 NIC).

So you forgot to add that when you first start with your CIC you are 21 MIC and all that equipment behind on November 9th 1938. While you eventually overtake the MIC build it will take a very long time to get past all that excess MIC equipment that the 21 additional MIC has built.

As the objective is to min-max production by early 45 taking a long time is no problem at all.


I already said ten times or more this is not viable for MP.

In SP its no problem at all to invest in 42-43 production as the game is slow with historical focus. (And im hoping you entering the war only in 42 with japan attack to follow history).

 

[AlanC9]

Hey, why is the target year 1945 rather than, say, 1944 or even 1943? The point of production is to use it for fighting, right?

 

[Secret Master]

Your 586 IC is nice, but thats not so much.

You do realize that I have not attacked a single enemy province, right?

I mean, in a real game, I'd have enough slots to get 900+ factories in play, because I could do the same thing Germany does: occupy enemy nations. Italy is a great choice for occupation, as once you are in place, it's easy to defend and gives you air bases within range of southern Germany. Thanks to the IJN being suckers, I should be able to occupy Japan by 1943, so I can start filling up her slots as well.

Do keep in mind that by late 1943, I have filled all slots in the US, including the ones opened by 1943 IC techs. So, even if I let Germany get away with defeating the Soviet Union to gain all those factories, I'm going to be seizing stuff from Germany's allies to give me both IC and extra slots for my massive CIC to fill up.

Let's also keep in mind that no CIC were converted to MIC during this particular run. Once I filled all slots, I started building RADAR everywhere, just to forestall complaints that I was gaming the system by not building other things. If I were worried about Germany having more IC, I'd start converting CIC to MIC. I could turn about 100 CIC into MIC without cutting off trade. (I've done it during the last production test.) The US exports so many resources, even under the limited trade, that I'll still have 40+ CIC to build infra/air fields/whatnot while having 80% of my CIC turned into MIC.

Actually, if Germany really wants to beat the US, she needs to seize the UK and Soviets before the US enters the war to ensure enough of an IC lead, on the off chance the US is able to quickly put Japan out of the war. Performing Sea Lion with the USAAF and RAF together in the British Isles (and run by humans) would be insanely difficult to pull off.

 

[Secret Master]

Hey, why is the target year 1945 rather than, say, 1944 or even 1943? The point of production is to use it for fighting, right?

Because the production totals I have include production through 1945.

If it makes you feel better, I had all divisions in place by 1943. And I had my 1945 allotment of DDs and subs in place by early 1944 (I made too many, actually), so I shifted production to strictly carriers and battleships for the last 18 months of the war.

(For those wondering, Cuba made out like a bandit since I imported all my chromium from them. Sheesh, they were getting 10 factories a day at some points.)

Also, the historical production of the US assumes the need to invade Japan. Operation Downfall/Olympic were already being planned when Japan threw in the towel. But the folks planning those invasions did not know if Japan was going to surrender, so it's not like production slowed when the bombs were ready to be dropped.

 

[AlanC9]

Thanks. That seems a bit better than historical, then.

I've seen figures showing that production of some items did slow towards the end of the war, actually. Not a crazy move if you already have all the divisions you're going to build fully equipped, since you only need replacements and upgraded types.

 

[amalric de g.]

You do realize that I have not attacked a single enemy province, right?

I mean, in a real game, I'd have enough slots to get 900+ factories in play, because I could do the same thing Germany does: occupy enemy nations. Italy is a great choice for occupation, as once you are in place, it's easy to defend and gives you air bases within range of southern Germany. Thanks to the IJN being suckers, I should be able to occupy Japan by 1943, so I can start filling up her slots as well.

Do keep in mind that by late 1943, I have filled all slots in the US, including the ones opened by 1943 IC techs. So, even if I let Germany get away with defeating the Soviet Union to gain all those factories, I'm going to be seizing stuff from Germany's allies to give me both IC and extra slots for my massive CIC to fill up.

Let's also keep in mind that no CIC were converted to MIC during this particular run. Once I filled all slots, I started building RADAR everywhere, just to forestall complaints that I was gaming the system by not building other things. If I were worried about Germany having more IC, I'd start converting CIC to MIC. I could turn about 100 CIC into MIC without cutting off trade. (I've done it during the last production test.) The US exports so many resources, even under the limited trade, that I'll still have 40+ CIC to build infra/air fields/whatnot while having 80% of my CIC turned into MIC.

Actually, if Germany really wants to beat the US, she needs to seize the UK and Soviets before the US enters the war to ensure enough of an IC lead, on the off chance the US is able to quickly put Japan out of the war. Performing Sea Lion with the USAAF and RAF together in the British Isles (and run by humans) would be insanely difficult to pull off.

Yes thats true, what you wrote. But you can´t compare the biggest child and the smallest honestly, if you don´t accept that they are different. As germany you rely on your conquests (IC and for the resources), with only 20 or 21 states, i don´t know how many the US in game has, but i think its more than double.

By the way, i startet my own test as germany (peacefully), im yet in 1941 and have 238 IC.

 

[sterrius]

Yes thats true, what you wrote. But you can´t compare the biggest child and the smallest honestly, if you don´t accept that they are different. As germany you rely on your conquests (IC and for the resources), with only 20 or 21 states, i don´t know how many the US in game has, but i think its more than double.

By the way, i startet my own test as germany (peacefully), im yet in 1941 and have 238 IC.

US have enough space for 522 factorys.

THe only advantage of the US is they just need 2 years after warbonds + warmobilization to get full slots and start actually spamming forts, infrastructure and nice things most countrys cant even dream about.

 

[jju_57]

Too bad with the current state of the AI the war is completely over in 1943 with Japan, Italy and Germany defeated. And yes I don't start till January 1942.

 

[Indigo Blue]

Too bad with the current state of the AI the war is completely over in 1943 with Japan, Italy and Germany defeated. And yes I don't start till January 1942.

Well the next patch at least should make quick wars substantially less likely.

 

[sterrius]

Well the next patch at least should make quick wars substantially less likely.

But the problem kind of exist even with better AI.

Just go to a MP game.
It will be very very hard for a game to pass 1940.


But i believe its totally possible with a few patchs to improve this to 42-43.
If it gets to 43 its almost historical anyway.

Just improving the AI will give some extra months. Even better if those improvements also improve how the AI execute battleplans and organize a defense in the front.

getting tired having to make multiple small plans and fronts because the AI can´t handle a medium/large one.

 

[Dalwin]

Leaving aside the implications from crappy economic laws, is it ever a good idea to build CIC under current rules?

Most nations seem to start with plenty, and some get extra CIC via NFs. CIC is really expensive. What's the payoff time for CIC?

I always build some CIC. As Germany I might build one CIC for each 3 MIC until the end of 38, then I stop building CIC. I believe that in the long run it pays off.

 

[IoannesBarbarus]

I always build some CIC. As Germany I might build one CIC for each 3 MIC until the end of 38, then I stop building CIC. I believe that in the long run it pays off.

Surely it is better to build all the CIC you’ll ever build before building any MIC.

 

[Indigo Blue]

Surely it is better to build all the CIC you’ll ever build before building any MIC.

In a run up of peace it can be. But for Germany its more efficient to conquer its CIC.